hooker's PCT!

[hooker]

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm

if you haven't seen it already...here it is...my full PCT reccomendations, with all sorts of other shit too....

[Rhandhular]

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-roberts/post-cycle-therapy.htm

if you haven't seen it already...here it is...my full PCT reccomendations, with all sorts of other shit too....
Excellent Read!! I am willing to give this a try.

[Abjo24]

Hooker,

In your PCT, I see your chart has the HCG taken at 500iu ED, is this correct or is it taken every 5 days? Thanks.

[hooker]

500iu/ED for 3 weeks.

[dougmcdougall]

You recommend 500i.u. per day of HCG, yet HCG typically comes in 2000 or 5000i.u. ampules. How do you recommend breaking them down into 500i.u. dosages??

[hooker]

You recommend 500i.u. per day of HCG, yet HCG typically comes in 2000 or 5000i.u. ampules. How do you recommend breaking
them down into 500i.u. dosages??
Just buy some extra bacteriostatic water, and a bigger sterile bottle...you can make any concentration you want...

[jeffvrolyks]

would taking 500iu ED have much of an advantage over 2000iu every 4th day?

[anaholic]

I havnt taken hcg since i read the book Cure for all cancers by Dr Hulda Clark, Iam not scared of many things but Iam now scared of hcg
if i were scared of drugs i wouldnt be doing cycles like this, this is my last cycle
restandol
decca
primobolan
stanozol
parabolin
humatrope
Humulin L
cytomel
proviron
cytadren
clomid
lasix/dyazide
accutane
I took all of this on my last cycle, and iam nervous as hell because i use to take hcg, iam not going to get into why , i dont have time to type it all out, its all in the book Cure for all cancers, available at barnes and noble, its a good book to read anyway as one can learn how to detoxify thier kidneys and liver in there

[shivastool]

some people say too much hcg produces prog. gyno. What are your thoughts, Hooker?

[Bucket]

some people say too much hcg produces prog. gyno. What are your thoughts, Hooker?


I know I'm not Hooker but when hcg is administered in large doses then the rebound effect is a surge of test being made which will rebound in more estrogen. It is this which causes the symptoms of gyno. This is why starting your hcg in high amounts during or towards the end of your pct has a tendency to produce Gyno.

[shivastool]

I know I'm not Hooker but when hcg is administered in large doses then the rebound effect is a surge of test being made which will rebound in more estrogen. It is this which causes the symptoms of gyno. This is why starting your hcg in high amounts during or towards the end of your pct has a tendency to produce Gyno.
Your not a hooker? Damn, kinda horny with Alin's Iranian test...

I think his (the Hooker's) PCT adresses some of that with the Amarosin and Nol during and after HCG administration...but I'd like to hear it from da man :D

[Bucket]

Your not a hooker? Damn, kinda horny with Alin's Iranian test...

I think his (the Hooker's) PCT adresses some of that with the Amarosin and Nol during and after HCG administration...but I'd like to hear it from da man :D


LOL I preffer Man-whore. LOL

[shivastool]

Ah yes, man-whore...I know it well. Last cycle...big ol' momma came onto me, what did I do? Anyway, I don't want to talk about it...sigh.

[anaholic]

hCG stimulates ortho-phospho-tyrosine production (abnormal growth stimulant) it is a marker for a positive test results in cancer, Iam not doing hCG anymore! just warning you all hCG is dangerous

[dougmcdougall]

Anaholic writes that Hcg supplementation produces orthophosphotyrosine production which is an indicator and perhaps causitive agent of cancer. I have been unable to find a clinical study which supports his theory.

I did find information which supports the premise that the presence of HCG in males is an idicator of cancer, and the presence of cancer is linked to the presense of orthophosphotyrosine, but I could not find a study that specifically links Hcg supplementation with causing either cancer or the production of orthophosphotyrosine production.

Can you cite any specific studies to shed some light on this ???

[anaholic]

check out dr hulda clarks book cure for all cancers at barnes and noble or on the internet or at www,drhuldaclark.org, orwww.drclark.net,

[sikdogg]

Interesting read but i don't totally agree with everything... I think that 500iu ED of HCG for 3 weeks is too much especially when it has been shown that 500iu EOD is enough to increase test above baseline by 26%. 500iu's ED will just put you at risk of de-sentisizing leydig cells. Running an AI during PCT will also put you at risk of driving E2 levels down too low, especially when using an steroidal AI. JMO...

[mickeymbbc]

Nice Point Sikdog:)




-mick

[shivastool]

so has anyone run this yet? What were the results?

[BigO]

I would save the hcg for tren's and deca if ran for long peroids....I personally don't like hcg....for some of the same reason's that sikdogg suggested....

I feel proviron is the better for me amd armidex if needed later.....another product I'm not crazy about is DNP......

[hooker]

so has anyone run this yet? What were the results?
Some people on the Mind and Muscle forums have run it with very good results, as well as a couple of people from other fourms...nobody has failed on it yet.

[11rdc11]

Alright Hooker, I am going to give your pct a try. Here is my question though, if I ran 500iu of HCG every 5th day during my cycle do you still recommend running the 500iu everyday for three weeks in pct with the 20mg of Nolva and 20mg aromasin?

P.S. Where did you get your Chem or Bio degree? I was reading your book and must say you are very knowledgeable with your organic chem.

[11rdc11]

I thought you all might like to read this. It is a debate over hooker's pct and Big Cat comments.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=669011

[hooker]

I didn't read the whole thread there....what was the debate about, more or less?

[jstforme]

I didn't read the whole thread there....what was the debate about, more or less?

i just skimmed through the article...which looked like nothing more than a copy of your article about pct. didnt see much of a debate. i like big cats articles, they arent the run of the mill information that is seen on a lot of gear sites...but i did follow his pct to the T on my first cycle and got gyno after my pct was done, i would say 2 weeks or so afterwards. i think the culprit was hcg when i really dont think i needed it on 500mg test.

[11rdc11]

The article was giving feedback on Hooker's pct. It dealt with big cat not reccomending using an AI during pct and that his HCG protocol was a bit extreme.

I normally use a AI during my pct. I guess it is a preference. I seems that different forums have different beliefs on how to run pct.

[11rdc11]

Ok, let me get focused, this could be a long one

First of all the issue of the AI. I talked to anthony about this and he as unable to sufficiently provide a reason for his recommendation of aromasin. As the text indicates he bases his recommendation only on the fact that aromasin is a steroidal AI and at least one study shows no upregulation of aromatase with steroidal AI's in healthy subjects. This is a good time to point out that one study has limited value and that the pathophysiology of PCT is not a healthy subject. Upregulation of AI is because of a negative T:E balance and steroidal AI's cause this just as much. BUt lets for a moment say that indeed the aromatase upregulation does not occur so that we can keep the debate out of it.

1.Then still the lower estrogen will cause an upregulation of the estrogen receptor leading to a higher sensitivity when estrogen returns causing potential for estrogen related problems and slower recovery.

2.When using a SERM estrogen is still made but doesn't act. When estrogen is not made this provides more substrate for 5AR leading to more DHT and again poorer recovery.

3.An AI will reduce SHBG. Someone thought they had a point by posting one study that shows this does not occur, when several others demonstrate that it does. Again a good time to point out that prolonged androgen use leads to downregulation of SHBG as a negative feedback mechanism. The pathophysiology of PCT is again not the same as a healthy subject in this case. Bringing back SHBG as quickly as possible, as a SERM does, wil lonly be hampered by AI use. SHBG splice variant is required for proper Leydig and Sertoli cell functioning, and SHBG is needed to convert andro to testosterone. The latter one of the hardest parts of HPTA to recover. Lower SHBG could also be the result of rebound gyno. Consider SHBG to be a testosterone buffer. If testosterone is increased via HCG for instance, instead of endogenous pulsatile LH, the testosterone increase is not buffered in time, and the result is that with HCG estrogen increases threefold over testosterone. Its no different with LH when SHBG is too low too buffer. In this regard too, an AI can be the culrpit of delayed gyno.

4.The actual contribution of the AI is nill, as it is redundant to the effect of the SERM. Whether there is no estrogen there, or you stop estrogen from acting, the effect is the same. And when the compound, be it AI or SERM, is ceased, estrogen will return to baseline, fast. With that difference that the AI could potentially cause more estrogen, and definitily causes more sensitivity to it. So what exactly is the USE of adding the AI ? Keep in mind if it has no use and potential negative effects, you are spending money on something that either does nothing, or is setting you back.

Then the issue of the this protocol. The HCG in this protocol is entirely too harsh. Too frequent. 500 IU every single day for 3 weeks ? That will cause leydig desensitisation to LH and could prolong your recovery. Keep in mind that LH has a half-life of only 2-4 hours, that of HCG exceeds 24 hours and produces a harsher reaction. When using HCG in PCT its better to opt for larger shock doses (2500 IU) but to spread them out over at least 2-3 times the half-life of HCG so that the leydig cells experience it as shock. With 500 ed, they will experience it as the way things are. I'd also start the HCG last week of cycle and 2 weeks into PCT. That gives you an extra week to recover, as recovery only really starts after HCG stops. Some people also opt for 2 or 3 weekly small dose injections of HCG (250 IU) across their cycle. There appears to be no difference in recovery between this practice and treatment with shock doses, so its entirely at the discretion of the user.

The issue of PCT in general The one thing I feel anthony came up short with with his protocol, is that he simply didn't look beyond the conventional. Yet there are more factors influencing hypothalamic and pituitary negative feedback, like progesterone, cortisol and IGF's, and there are more points of negative feedback in the HPTA such as Leydig and Sertoli cell function and andro to test conversion to name two. I'm not at a point yet where I would want to recommend a definitive PCT. BUt what we do know is that proper HCG + SERM works fine and you can just stick to that, and for the future, these are some things I have been looking at :

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/For...tcycle+therapy

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/For...tcycle+therapy

And I think even that is just the tip of the iceberg. Between now and the time I need to write about PCT for the book, I hope to have a lot more, and a lot more concrete information on the matter.

[hooker]

Interesting.

[sikdogg]

For the record... BigCat is very smart but can be too clinical at times and is somewhat close minded when real world results don't align with the studies that he's read.

[jstforme]

For the record... BigCat is very smart but can be too clinical at times and is somewhat close minded when real world results don't align with the studies that he's read.

just wondering how you know this?

[hooker]

just wondering how you know this?
I think he's saying that Peter just doesn't actually do many anabolics compared to the amount of research he does...

[hooker]

i just skimmed through the article...which looked like nothing more than a copy of your article about pct. didnt see much of a debate. i like big cats articles, they arent the run of the mill information that is seen on a lot of gear sites...but i did follow his pct to the T on my first cycle and got gyno after my pct was done, i would say 2 weeks or so afterwards. i think the culprit was hcg when i really dont think i needed it on 500mg test.
Peter is a nice dude. His profiles are like...5-6 years old I think. Most recently, I saw him logged into steroid.com reading my profiles, actually....I asked him what was up and he said he was comparing notes with my profiles for the ones he's written for his book.

All of my interactions with Peter have been pretty pleasant...

[sikdogg]

just wondering how you know this?
I'm not trying to take anything away from BC, I respect him alot but i just don't completely agree with everything he says. He posts alot of studies, but in-vivo is very different than in-vitro. When challenged with real words results that don't agree with his posted studies he is extremely reluctant to concede that maybe the study doesn't paint a complete picture.

[hooker]

I'm not trying to take anything away from BC, I respect him alot but i just don't completely agree with everything he says. He posts alot of studies, but in-vivo is very different than in-vitro. When challenged with real words results that don't agree with his posted studies he is extremely reluctant to concede that maybe the study doesn't paint a complete picture.
In vivo can be very different from in vitro....but honestly, "in-athlete" is what I like to look at...you know what I mean?

The studies and the athletes have to be in agreement about what works, or the study isn't worth shit.

On the other hand, athletes can do things that work, and not know why...until we look at a study and figure out how it's happening- and how we can make it work better.

[sikdogg]

Exactly, one has to look at clinical studies and balance that with anecdotal results from real world use to get the big picture.

[sikdogg]

Going back to your PCT... you don't think that 500iu of HCG per day will cause de-sensitization of leydig cells?? I guess even if it didn't, i feel that it's just much more than what one needs to recover. In the study below, 500iu EOD for three weeks raised test levels above baseline.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...f&pmid=15713727

LOW DOSE HUMAN CHORIONIC GONADOTROPIN MAINTAINS INTRATESTICULAR TESTOSTERONE IN NORMAL MEN WITH TESTOSTERONE INDUCED GONADOTROPIN SUPPRESSION.

Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, Herbst KL, Amory JK, Anawalt BD, Sutton PR, Wright WW, Brown TR, Yan X, Zirkin BR, Jarow JP.

Center for Research in Reproduction and Contraception, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Veteran Affairs Puget Sound Health Care System (AMM), and Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine (ADC, WJB, JKA, BDA, PLS), Seattle, WA; Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University (KLH), Los Angeles, CA; Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (XY, JPJ), Baltimore, MD; Division of Reproductive Biology, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health (WWW, TRB, XY, BRZ, JPJ), Baltimore, MD.

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally we sought to determine the dose response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to determine the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate (TE) weekly in combination with either saline placebo or hCG 125 IU, 250 IU, or 500 IU every other day for 3 weeks. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/L) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/L). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 nmol/L to 72 nmol/L) in the TE/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Post-treatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

[hooker]

Take a look at what heppens, though, when you use nolvadex with HCG....

[KoreanBB]

so how much and how soon
ive seen a few posts but many contradict each other
ive also done alot of searches all over the place

[sikdogg]

Take a look at what heppens, though, when you use nolvadex with HCG....
Interesting read...

I've been reading alot of your articles over at Meso and i liked them alot. I have to admit that some of what you wrote about is outside the beaten path. Good stuff none the less...

[sikdogg]

Take a look at what heppens, though, when you use nolvadex with HCG....
I carefully read thru you PCT and have a couple of questions...

...while HCG increases Testosterone, it increases estrogen as well... an increase in circulating levels of LH have been shown to induce down-regulation of LH-receptors in both rodent studies... if you have used enough to downregulate your LH-receptors and increase estrogen too much, then more steroidogenic cholesterol is available. This is telling me that less is being converted to testosterone... this lack of an increase in testosterone doesn’t necessarily mean that the HCG may be unable to increase circulating levels of Estrogen (18) And remember that increase in Estrogen will (most likely) cause your body ultimately to produce less testosterone

How does HCG increase estrogen without test?? If not thru aromatase activity then it must be thru a different pathway...

... we have to use Aromasin (exemestane) as our AI, because it’s an aromatase inactivator, meaning it makes estrogen receptors useless...

Please explain aromatase inactivator versus aromatase inhibitor?? From what i've read, Aromasin is an aromatase inhibitor...

Since aromatase is only involved with the conversion of test to estro and does nothing at the receptor, how can an aromatase inactivator make estrogen receptors useless??

Please understand that i'm not trying to be a smart-ass, i just want to learn and understand how everything comes together...