is it bad to ask this

[dr intensity]

hey guys,

when a 150 pound natural trainee starts
1. eating 400 grams of protien + 400grams of carbs +100grams of fats
2 Trains with progressively heavier wts.

After 3 years of immense consistencency he plateaus at 180 pounds,
increasing his diet from 400 grams to 600 grams or carbs from 400 to 800.... will not be a good idea, as it would lead to more fat gains........this is the point where he needs to increase the efficiency of his already excellent diet.

now with the same diet he does a 500mg test for 10 week cycle... he gains 20 pounds....

now he is 200pounds.

my point here is that one should not over expect from an already excellent diet.

now the same 200 pounder comes to the forums with an ultimate goal of becoming 250pounds asks for advice about drug cycle.
he unnecerarrily has to bear with the comments like "hey" noob .... its all in the diet... diet this diet that....

but the poor guy is looking for a drug cycle system he can use on a yearly basis for say 4 years
-which is safe
-lesser need to increase the dosage.

so what kind of drug cycle system can this guy go with---- trevor smith made a great point of doing 8 weeks on and 4 weeks off type of cycles for year long basis.
and with this kind of cycling he may need to increase the dose every 4th cycle.

year 1
week 1 to 6 500mg teste + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy

repeats 4 such cycles in year

year 2 week 1 to 6 750mg teste + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy

epeats 4 such cycles in year

year 3 1 to 6 750mg teste +some anabolic + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy

repeats 4 such cycles in year

year 4 1 to 6 1000mg teste +some anabolic + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy.
repeats 4 such cycles in year

year 5 1 to 6 1250mg teste +some anabolic + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy.
repeats 4 such cycles in year


and during these 5 years the same guy ate 500 grams of protien + 500grmas of carbs and 100grams of fats.... and is now 250 pound mass monster..

what is wrong with this blue print of the cycle design...
i think the guy is making the full use of the dose before increasing it.
thank you

[MiamiMuscle]

More stats on the trainee please. Age, bf% height, etc

Sounds tough on the body to me. Personally I would give a few months off of everything after each cycle...

[dr intensity]

this is just a hypothical case secanrio.... where a person can be on most the time and the same time the need of upping the dose is minimized as much as possible.

lets assume he starts lifting at the age of 18 and then three years of natural he does his 1st steroid cycle...

[OMAR]

So by the time he is 26, he will have been on artificial test for three and one third years out of five. I view a mans 20's as his most potent in his life for ability to make gains, and probably more importantly, reproduce.

It sounds to me, that following that protocol at that age will have two results

First, probably won't be able to reproduce, and will probably destroy his sex drive without the use of drugs, for the rest of his life.
Second, probably will have a very difficult time ever gaining muscle or strength naturally for the rest of his life.

Now, if that person decided to train naturally until the age of say, 32 ish, different story.

[OMAR]

Oh, also, if that person did follow that protocol for 5 years, assuming proper training, rest and good health, they would probably put on some totally serious mass.

[Casperd360]

I guess its true that a lot of us are members on other boards. He has asked this on proM and rxmuscle.

[xvvfacevvx]

wow, thats my story in a nutshell.........

[OMAR]

wow, thats my story in a nutshell.........

Whats your story?

You've been on roids for the last 5 years?
or
You've been posting on other boards and getting beat to shit because of it?
or
You can't make gains or pop a boner without taking drugs?
or
You put on serious mass in the last 5 years?
or
all of the above?

[Jello]

Just to be argumentative, my response to this whole thing would be based on the hypothetical persons height.

If the guy is 5'6'' than I would continue to give the guy advice. If the guy is 5'10'' than I call bullshit. If his diet is that good and training the way he should be than there is no way he plateaus at 180lbs. I was 175lbs at 5'10'' before I started lifting/eating seriously enough to put on some real mass.

[xvvfacevvx]

. I was 175lbs at 5'10'' before I started lifting/eating seriously enough to put on some real mass.

Lucky, try starting at 130 and moving your way up. After my first 50lbs I put on its been a struggle to add size, and I mean struggle. So If someone came on the board and said that they've put on 40-50lbs but only weigh 180lbs and was thinking about a cycle. First I would like to see proof, then second ask for their diet/training, then give them a basic cycle.

[dr intensity]

guys,

for serious bodybuilder, there are just two priorities
1. TO gain good amount muscle every year.
2. To keep him self healthy.


now this plan is not people who train for hobby, who do one 8 week cycle a year....

this is for the above mentioned serious bodybuilder,
who wants to gain muscle at a good rate while mentaining his health.
now mentaining his health is directly proprtional to the premature increase in dose the body builder makes thinking more is better.....

i here propose this idea, because here i feel one can make the most use of a particular dose(low dose say 350 to 500mg test/8 week cycles) for a long period of time ( 3 to 4 cycles) before he stops responding to that given dosage.

doing this will minimize the premature increments in the dosages which most of the people make once they plateau.

yes there will be a need to increase the dosage.... but the need will be far less as campared to the other style of staying on for tooo long...

bodybuilding is a very long journey and its not like we can fall sick(with super high dosages) and still grow.... we need to be healthy at the same time grow at a constant rate.

one must eat a lot of protien (1.5 x target bodywt in lbs) along with all the protien sparing nutrients so that the protien is utilized exclusively for muscle building purposes.( sounds so nice)

then again one cannot over expect from a diet, for example a 160 pounder who eats 3000 calories and trains naturally and then plateaus at 180 pounds (muscle gain wise) now if he starts eating 6000 calories will he gain more muscle? I don’t think so adding in more food = fuel is not going to give him more muscle, in reality there is a demand of increasing the efficiency of the diet through hormonal manipulation which will further his muscle gains.

Steroids increase the rate of protein synthesis, our muscle cells are able to synthesize more contractile protein therefore increasing the dietary protein utilization, in other words steroids increases the efficiency of the dietary protein.


I know people who like to go on massive dosages but massive dosages yields massive gains along with massive sides.
Now as we know bodybuilding is a very long journey now if I get sick using very high dosages, how can I expect to grow.
Steroid dosages are quiet person specific, but as I see it, we need to keep gaining for 5 to 10 years, how can i accomplish this consistency?
i look at bodybuilding as a marathon where i need to maintain a certain speed, trying to run at the fastest possible speed on a marathon will exhaust me too soon and at the same time I don’t believe in too low dosages as it makes no sense to me to run at the slowest possible speed , therefore I believe in running a neither slow nor very fast but at a moderate speed. So for me its all about running moderate dosages year after year.

I look at a drug cycle a way to enhance the efficiency of the diet which would result in increased protein synthesis rate therefore increase in muscle gains, but body tries to resist this increase in muscle mass through its various negative feed back loops mechanisms(learned this from dave palumbo) ( Myostatin overshoot, increase SHBG levels, increased cortisol levels, some believe receptor get screwed etc etc ) therefore the best way to manage this to confuse the body,
what I mean is you can go off cycle or cruise when your muscle gains plateau, so that all the factors that were previously preventing muscle growth will be lowered to their baseline levels for 10 weeks and then boom cycle again.


So I use dosages that gives me gains ( 1-2 pounds/week) with minimal sides. So when I plateau its simply indicates 2 things
Either to increase my dosages = further continuing the gains = more sides OR
Stop the cycle as I plateau and stay off or cruise for some time ie 8 to 10 weeks. So that my all the muscle plateauing factors are reduced to their lowest levels.
so its like
1. gain muscle during cycle ( moderate dosage + keeping your self upregulated HPTA wise ) so that
2. you can almost mentain(faster HPTA recovery) your gains during cruise or off cycle time.

[drob29]

hey guys,

when a 150 pound natural trainee starts
1. eating 400 grams of protien + 400grams of carbs +100grams of fats
2 Trains with progressively heavier wts.

So like Jello said, whats his height? lets assume he's 5ft 9 from this point forward

After 3 years of immense consistencency he plateaus at 180 pounds,
increasing his diet from 400 grams to 600 grams or carbs from 400 to 800.... will not be a good idea, as it would lead to more fat gains.

Yes it would, but it would also yeild more muscle gain as well. Most dont want to gain fat only to have to cut after, becasue thats alot of work....:eek:

.......this is the point where he needs to increase the efficiency of his already excellent diet.

Most, if not 95% of 5ft 9 180 lb members here DO NOT HAVE an excellent diet.

now with the same diet he does a 500mg test for 10 week cycle... he gains 20 pounds....now he is 200pounds.

my point here is that one should not over expect from an already excellent diet.

what? There is no reason why a 5 ft 9 180 bber can not get to 200 lbs or damn close to it by adjusting diet (oh, and workout, seems you have not mentioned that anywhere, about how to switch up a workout when you plateau) and yes adding some fat then cutting. Its not about over expecting, its about under achieving and/or people who look for quick solutions ie AAS.

now the same 200 pounder comes to the forums with an ultimate goal of becoming 250pounds asks for advice about drug cycle.
he unnecerarrily has to bear with the comments like "hey" noob .... its all in the diet... diet this diet that....

Not sure about that. Actuallly your wrong. If your 5 ft 9 200 lb guy comes here looking for cycle advice yes he will be asked diet but I cant see anyone telling him no AAS go work your diet

but the poor guy

awwwww...your right, the poor guy:cool:

is looking for a drug cycle system he can use on a yearly basis for say 4 years
-which is safe
-lesser need to increase the dosage.

so what kind of drug cycle system can this guy go with---- trevor smith made a great point of doing 8 weeks on and 4 weeks off type of cycles for year long basis.
and with this kind of cycling he may need to increase the dose every 4th cycle.

year 1
week 1 to 6 500mg teste + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy

repeats 4 such cycles in year

year 2 week 1 to 6 750mg teste + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy

epeats 4 such cycles in year

year 3 1 to 6 750mg teste +some anabolic + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy

repeats 4 such cycles in year

year 4 1 to 6 1000mg teste +some anabolic + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy.
repeats 4 such cycles in year

year 5 1 to 6 1250mg teste +some anabolic + A.I + HCG
7 to 8 500mg testp
9 to 12 clomid therapy.
repeats 4 such cycles in year


and during these 5 years the same guy ate 500 grams of protien + 500grmas of carbs and 100grams of fats.... and is now 250 pound mass monster..

what is wrong with this blue print of the cycle design...
i think the guy is making the full use of the dose before increasing it.
thank you

To answer your question, I guess one could see where that may be a plan of some sort, or more of a general guidline really. IMO to suggest dosages for someone 4 years down the line is absurd, but then again so is most of your post.

Obviously your an educated guy. I will say your prose and ability to write is outstanding, especially the way you lead people through the first 1/2 of your post. Well done.

But "hey" :cool: when I pick apart what you posted, and dissect it (you know what that means right? in case you dont, here I will help: " to examine minutely part by part; analyze: to dissect an idea.) I come to the conclusion that this thread is more of an attempt on your part to showcase your knowledge and education than to generate actual meaningful dialog. You have this ability to come across as a pompus ass, who knows damn well he is better and smarter than most here. I mean a 5 year cycle plan? are you serious? Please say no.

You have added much to this board since you have been here, its good to have a guy with a medical background around since crf does not post here anymore. And possibly you are highly educated, and you really are smarter than most here. But no need to be an ass about it.

I therefore have come to the following conclusion: This thread is rubbish.

"...always here to make friends and be a nice guy team player....."
drob

[Invrt]

I can't believe no one brought up the point that without bloodwork this is all bullshit ! We've had some members on here that thought the gear was bad, and they got ragged on about their diet becuase we know the gear is good... and you know what? After getting bloodwork pulled their thyroid was going apeshit. Read big A's stuff on PM. Why bump up the test if the "BB wannabe" is still pulling test level in the 3-4k range ??? And you can stay on cycle when you're making gains if the bloodwork comes back consistent, you can't put a weeks number on a cycle if you are going for a pro card.

[xvvfacevvx]

Whats your story?

You've been on roids for the last 5 years?
or
You've been posting on other boards and getting beat to shit because of it?
or
You can't make gains or pop a boner without taking drugs?
or
You put on serious mass in the last 5 years?
or
all of the above?

My story is that i started out at a very small weight, naturaly put on 50lbs and did my first cycle at around 180lbs, Im now pushing 200 at 7%. I dont understand how i deserve a comment like this, what the fuck do you contribute? hmm :rolleyes:

[drob29]

I can't believe no one brought up the point that without bloodwork this is all bullshit ! We've had some members on here that thought the gear was bad, and they got ragged on about their diet becuase we know the gear is good... and you know what? After getting bloodwork pulled their thyroid was going apeshit. Read big A's stuff on PM. Why bump up the test if the "BB wannabe" is still pulling test level in the 3-4k range ??? And you can stay on cycle when you're making gains if the bloodwork comes back consistent, you can't put a weeks number on a cycle if you are going for a pro card.

GREAT POINT. :cool:

[dr intensity]

ok guys,
my point was to chalk out a drug cycle system which has
1. THE NEED TO INCREASE THE DOSE is minimized.

2. how actually a person can make MOST use of a particular given dosage.

for example a person may be able to use 500mg test/8 weeks four times a year, rather than being on straight for 8 months( of course increasing the dosage every months 500.750, 1000. 1250. 1500).

now how would u feel about a first timer using 1500mg for his 1st 8 month long cycle.


but i understand you people are not much intrested in all this bullshit so its ok guys... no hard feelings.....
lets lock the thread

[dr intensity]

i apologize for wasting your time guys.... and i have asked the administrators to locck the thread.

[Jello]

Wow....Everyone got a little too serious too quickly.

I just injected the part about the hypothetical person's height because it would change the way we should be looking at this post.

The idea of helping someone who is actually looking for long term help with cycle planning is not something that I have seen discussed here before so this thread has a lot to offer if we take it for that instead of getting our panties all twisted.

The problem with these hypothetical scenarios is that someone can always add something to the equation to give it a twist and send the whole thing in another direction i.e. the persons height.

I will say that I do like the idea of giving someone that has earned it information that they can use on cycle planning to carry them beyond the first cycle, but you also need to try to educate this same person so that they don't need to keep coming back for help. It's like the old saying about giving a guy a fish or teaching him to fish. With regards to the original post, I say we teach these guys to fish, but keep it with the safe cycle mentality that you laid out.