Maintenace test en

[jimmymac]

I sort of asked the following question in the middle of a long thread in another section of this website, but I will ask it again here as it is really a PCT question.

If an older man (60 years old) decides to stay on a weekly dose of 250 test to keep his levels closer to normal, then should he still undergo the usual PCT following a cycle of, let's say, 750 test en and 600 Eq per week for 14 weeks? Or just take some HCG to regain some testicular size? And how long should this gentleman wait to crank it back up again?

Jimmymac

[Alin]

I sort of asked the following question in the middle of a long thread in another section of this website, but I will ask it again here as it is really a PCT question.

If an older man (60 years old) decides to stay on a weekly dose of 250 test to keep his levels closer to normal, then should he still undergo the usual PCT following a cycle of, let's say, 750 test en and 600 Eq per week for 14 weeks? Or just take some HCG to regain some testicular size? And how long should this gentleman wait to crank it back up again?

Jimmymac


i'm guessing if your technically staying on year around (low dose test) that the hcg would be good option.

[anaholic]

I stay on it all year, Ihave been doing for five years, I take moderate dosages like 20mg a day of winny, or 400mg per week of decca, OR 500MG per week of sust, Idont take dbol, or anadrol anymore, its not worth the side effects, but anyway I take only one steroid at a time, and switch to something different every 3 weeks, or at the first sign of testicle shrinkage, I start taking clomid, if I evn think my balls are getting smaller, I take it at any given time, by taking one thing at a time I learn what works best for me, or what could even be a fake, the only time I stack is before a contest, or during a cycle that includes growth hormone, I dont use tamoxifen, or Hcg any more I prefur clomid, I use to get something out of mexico called Fertador/cyclofinel this made a deffinate increase in the size of my balls, I havent been able to find any latley, but I sure would like some, anyway I never let my balls shrink up anymore, its just to hard to get them back, and the cycles that I did when I first started where to tramatic, it was like I was riding on a yoyo :)

[jimmymac]

Say anaholic:

Your program of taking only one chemical at a time and switching them around is interesting. I re-read some old posts by Doggcrapp and he advocates 4 weeks "on" and 2 weeks "off" year-round. If you are familiar with his program, then you know by "off" he just means reducing the test to roughly half the amount taken during the "on" phase. He advocates that novices start with a weekly dose of 500mg test for a few months, then upping it to 750, and so on. To that he adds one other basic "non-exotic" chemical such as deca or Eq. So an experienced user might be up to one gram a week of test and 500 mg of deca per week during the 4 week "on" cycle, then drop the deca and take only 400-500 mg of test during the 2 week "off" cycle. He does say that he uses clomid to reduce the testicular shrinkage. I am 59 years old and don't care much about the actual size of the testicles although I still want to have good erections for sex with the wife now and then. I am not concerned about fathering any more children (I had a vasectomy 20 years ago anyway). From what I have read, to maintain sexual activity one needs to stay on a base of test (to replace the natural decline from aging and the suppression of the HPTA axis during the cycle).

I also read that the longer one takes an exogenous source of test (or any of the other HPTA suppressing chemicals) the harder it is to get the testes to begin natural production when one stops the exogenous source. So I feel that I am at a cross-roads. If I elect to stay on test (or go more extreme and follow the Doggcrapp routine) then there is the strong possibility that I will have to stay on it for the rest of my life (or else suffer the side-effects of coming off and having no endogenous production). If I cease maintenance test between cycles (and go through PCT), then there is the strong possibility that I will lose all my gains as well as suffer the side-effects of below normal test production that men my age have.

Right now I have decided to follow the first route and I have been taking 250 test per week since I ended my last "cycle" 2 weeks ago (which was 750 test and 600 Eq per week). My plan is to "cruise" for another few weeks and then bump the test back up to one gram per week and switch to deca at 500 mg per week. What I haven't decided is how long this "on" cycle should last. I also ordered some HCG which should arrive soon and I think I will use it to see if it reduces the testicular shrinkage. I also have nolvadex on hand but have never had any gyno problems in the past.

I started using gear about 18 months ago at a starting weight of below 170 lbs at slightly over 6 feet tall. I am now up to 195 lbs and have had to buy much larger shirts (but not pants, thank God, because I don't want my waistline to get out of hand). Plus I don't have the moodiness, depression, and sexual dysfunction that I was having many years before I started with the gear.

Jimmymac

[anaholic]

Ive been at this for nearly 20 years when I first started I did cycles 2 months on 2 months off and so on, the problem I had was I crashed after my cycles, loosing alot of weight, getting depressed, not feeling like lifting, loss of strength, not liking what I saw in the mirror, worst of all was not getting that pump I love so much, this yoyo affect is to hard on onesself and family/friends, I now know that it was because my cortisol was the dominet hormone after my cycle, testosterone and cortisol are antagonists, they compete at the same receptors, testosterone sends a signal to grow and cortisol sends a signal to break down, these two hormones reach a state of equellibriam the reason a nateral weightlifter makes gaines is because his testosterone to cortisol ratio is favorable for growth, the guy you see comming in the gym day after day and looks the same a year later probably has an unfavorable ratio, when you inject synthetic testosterone it is dominate for about 3 weeks then the feed back loop senses the imbalance and increases cortisol production and at the same time lowers testosterone production, by switching every 3 weeks its easier to stay in a state of anabolism, all the other side effects associated with androgens are greatly diminished this way, dont get me wrong here I believe in being prepared for side effects I allways have, proscar, accutane, lasix, clomid, but most importantly I dont crash at the end of my cycle, if you do cycles your going to crash , think of it this way your at the end of your cycle, your taking 400mg decca 500mg test or what ever the point is your body is trying to reach equillibriam and you cortisol ratios are extremely high you nowquite taking synthetic vertions of testosterone, and your body has quite making its own testosterone, you know this because of the size of your balls, dont fool yourself into thinking clomid or hcg will bring them back, when there the size of a pea the only thing thats oing to bring them back is time. in the mean time the super high levels of cortisol will break down all that hard earned muscle, the best thing to do is trick your body by switching to different drugs often, if your balls start to shrink you know your body has figured it out and is working to combat the problem, by switching often you confuse your body and it doesnt increase cortisol production, my general rule of thumb is if you even think your balls are getting smaller switch to something else and start taking clomid immediatly,
The dosages you are stating are to much, all you really need is a favorable testosterone to cortisol ratio, stay in the range of something like this 400mg per week eq, 400mg week decca, 500mg week test, 300mg week primobolan, switch every 3 weeks or sooner if you get testicle shrinkage, take clomid whenever needed, take lasix for water retention 2 days on 2 days off(the feed back loop for aldactone is two days)if your hair starts falling out switch steroids and start taking proscar if you dont have proscar take saw pallamento berry extract 80mg 3 times per day, if you want to get big I can tell you how to do that, when a pro says he didnt get big from steroids hes telling the truth it takes more than steroids to get freaky huge. but if your 59 im sure this isnt your goal, most people just want to look good, im assuming this is what you want to. Also try to avoid high fructose corn syrup,fructose, corn syrup is all the same thing Eat small amounts of protien throughout the day and have a protien shake in morning immeiatly upon arising look into doing liver and kidney cleanses I posted on how to do a liver cleanse ill try to post on how to to a kindney cleanse, if not check out a book by Dr. Hulda Clark, there both in there in detail, her books are called,The cure for all diseases, and The cure for all cancers, most importantly dont let your balls shrink up, 59 or not. :)

[jimmymac]

Thanks again anaholic. Very good information. I have gone through two 12-week cycles of 500 test en/400 Eq and one 16 week cycle of 750 test en/600 Eq over the past 18 months and each time the cycle ended and the "crash" you described happened even with PCT. I don't want to keep going though that.

I have read different posts by guys on various boards about testicular shrinkage. Some describe them as shrinking to pea size. It is hard to remember the size of my testicles at age 21, but I don't think I have lost more than 25% of their size from the time when I started my first cycle 18 months ago.

And you are correct that I don't want to get "freaky" huge (I couldn't anyway because I don't have the genetics for it. I have the long and lanky build with wrists narrow enough that I can wrap my thumb and middle finger around them and touch the tips of the finger and thumb together). But I started lifting weights several years ago (and then added the gear later) to "fill out" my frame. This I have done. But as with other things that please us, we usually want more.

I eat twice my body weight in protein everyday along with complex carbohydrates several times during the day and keep the simple sugars to a minimum. I know that diet is one of the main keys to putting on muscle and weight and I'll admit that it is sometimes hard to eat the volume necessary. I will check into the kidney and liver cleanses.

Thanks again,

Jimmymac

[jimmymac]

Say Anaholic (or anyone else who has the answer):

In your last post you said, "my general rule of thumb is if you even think your balls are getting smaller switch to something else and start taking clomid immediatly."

Since I already have HCG on hand, would it hurt anything to go ahead and run 500 IUs a day for a few days? And if so, should it be during a cycle or during the "cruise" phase?

As you may recall, I have decided to stay on a maitenance dose of test between cycles (I'm 59), although I do like your program of switching chemicals to something different every 3 weeks. But both your program or a maintenace-dose-of-test program will shut down the HPTA and lead to testicular atrophy. I also have nolvadex on hand.

Jimmymac

[Bucket]

Jimmymac, If your on it all year round as a maintainace phase there is no need as others have said to run a "Normal" PCT.

There are other rules that one "Should" follow as well. For Shics you take mass amounts of AAS in a short amount of time.

In 10 or 12 week cycles the doses are not as high as shics but still fairly high.

If you are wanting to stay on year round then you can lower the dose of many different compunds to conutinue to grow and make gains all year long.

Here is an example of what I've been doing.

As you can see everything is of a moderate range except for the test which is on the high side. But the rule of thumb for long cycle's from 6 months to a year is to keep it light. Also every five weeks you are starting a new compound to keep everything fresh. This is a 35 week cycle but you can keep rotating everything and run it continuasly for a year.

[anaholic]

the point i was trying to make is that i run all year and do not expierance testicle atrophy, I know what it is because i use to do the cycle thing with pct afterward and my balls got little everytime, i know i dont have atrophy right now and i know that when i quite lifting(someday)ill still be a big boy,I know that if you run at least 4 years without time off you will always be big, if you run cycles then someday when you dont lift anymore you will eventually return to your nateral bodyweight, iam sharing this with you because i dont compete anymore, and i dont think it should be a secret

[tdrose]

This has been very educational for me as well. I have used gear off and on for 5 years or so. Mostly off and when i was on i didnt know what the hell i was doing anyway. After discovering this and PM boards i have learned alot. The problem i am having is that i just completed my first high dosage cycle for 16 weeks with Test/Sus 250/ Deca. Was the best cycle i ever ran. Gained 25 lbs. But when the cycle ended 5 weeks ago i did a great PCT then i jumped on the scale. As of today i have lost 14 of those lbs and it just seems like it is still coming. I under stand the Cortisol thing he was talking about. I eat well and still loose after the cycle. Lost the pump, strength and lost the water that was making my bum shoulder not hurt, hurt once again. This year around cycle looks good for me as well. I have never used EQ. Is this good the stack at different times of the year with the test and deca? What are its advantages. Any other advise for year long cycles?

Thanks

[Bucket]

This has been very educational for me as well. I have used gear off and on for 5 years or so. Mostly off and when i was on i didnt know what the hell i was doing anyway. After discovering this and PM boards i have learned alot. The problem i am having is that i just completed my first high dosage cycle for 16 weeks with Test/Sus 250/ Deca. Was the best cycle i ever ran. Gained 25 lbs. But when the cycle ended 5 weeks ago i did a great PCT then i jumped on the scale. As of today i have lost 14 of those lbs and it just seems like it is still coming. I under stand the Cortisol thing he was talking about. I eat well and still loose after the cycle. Lost the pump, strength and lost the water that was making my bum shoulder not hurt, hurt once again. This year around cycle looks good for me as well. I have never used EQ. Is this good the stack at different times of the year with the test and deca? What are its advantages. Any other advise for year long cycles?

Thanks

The rule of thumb for year long cycle's is less. But I wouldn't advise a year long cycle unless you really know what you are doing and how your body responds to different gear. You should also always get your blood tests on a regular basis as well.

But to me if you are losing so much weight after a cycle then your diet is not what it should be. To really keep your gains after a cycle then you need to continue to eat big all the way through your PCT and then begin to taper down. Your body needs to acclimate to it's mass, if not then you will loose your gains. Your body wants to be a certain weight and will do anything to get it there, but the longer you stay "Big" like when on cycle then the greater chance your body will adapt to carrying that weight.

[tdrose]

Thanks bucket for the advise. I agree my diet is not what is was on the cycle. My appetite declined slightly after the cycle as well. I do agree with you body getting used to carrying a certain amount of weight. I didnt achieve my best gains untill the latter part of the cycle then i went off. I guess i should have just stayed on longer or just switched up drugs. I had ran a long cycle in the past, about 6 months and after that i kept all but about 3-4 pounds so a longer cycle does agree well with my body. I am a little hesitant about telling my doctor and getting Blood work done. I have Kaiser insurance and they can cancel you if you are at a higher risk of doing harm to your body against a doctors advise. But i will check into it. I appreciate your help.

Thanks

[Bucket]

Thanks bucket for the advise. I agree my diet is not what is was on the cycle. My appetite declined slightly after the cycle as well. I do agree with you body getting used to carrying a certain amount of weight. I didnt achieve my best gains untill the latter part of the cycle then i went off. I guess i should have just stayed on longer or just switched up drugs. I had ran a long cycle in the past, about 6 months and after that i kept all but about 3-4 pounds so a longer cycle does agree well with my body. I am a little hesitant about telling my doctor and getting Blood work done. I have Kaiser insurance and they can cancel you if you are at a higher risk of doing harm to your body against a doctors advise. But i will check into it. I appreciate your help.

Thanks


Just tell your doc you want a FULL blood panel done. He shouldn't have a problem with it. Go ahead and get your natural test taken as well. Also your doctor does not have to disclose the information you discuss with him either.

[jimmymac]

Bucket:

I do understand that year-round test precludes a PCT. I did read though that HCG every so often during the particularly high chemical cycles will help maintain testicular size, but not function (since one is taking in much higher amounts of test than they would have produced anyway).

I like your "Long Cycle" text. I can see where switching to different gear every few weeks might affect receptor sites differently, or affect sites not be affected by a certain chemical. I see that test is still your "base" chemical throughout the year. I intend to give it try for a year. I will post from time to time how it is going.

Jimmymac

[Bucket]

Bucket:

I do understand that year-round test precludes a PCT. I did read though that HCG every so often during the particularly high chemical cycles will help maintain testicular size, but not function (since one is taking in much higher amounts of test than they would have produced anyway).

I like your "Long Cycle" text. I can see where switching to different gear every few weeks might affect receptor sites differently, or affect sites not be affected by a certain chemical. I see that test is still your "base" chemical throughout the year. I intend to give it try for a year. I will post from time to time how it is going.

Jimmymac


Just be really careful brother. This is not the best thing for your body and in retrospect I should probably not have posted it.

This will shut you down and have a good chance on never really recovering fully. So unless you are already on HRT then this might not be the best laid out plan. I have low test levels consititly and am borderline HRT anyways so I decided to do this. But it is VERY important to get blood work done, cholestrol checked, and PB chech periodically (The more the better).

Also if you are set on doing this then you might wan to change a few things as well. It would be a good idea to run some finastride or liquidstride as a DHT blocker and to help with your prostate as well. Also you can see a pattern in the layout. It would be a good idea to cycle off the Test the same way the other AAS are and to subsitute the lack of test (When not running any) with Proviron. This will also help with the libido from the lack of test. Also you can substitue some of the orals for winny depending on your goals.

I got tired of strechmarks and fast gains and wanted something that one would be able to make the same amount of gains running a few cycles a year into one long one. It's the same amount of gear as you would take throughout the year cycling on and off.

The plus side is you will keep gaining all year long and spend the same amount of $ as you would cycling but without the flucuation and stretch marks.

The down side is you run the risk forever being on HRT!!!! USE WITH CAUTION!!!!

[anaholic]

I would really reconsider running test inbetween cycles, your asking for problems, i try to run test as liitle as possible i dont like the side effects, there are much better choices available,

and as far as getting blood work done its a difficult deal, doctors dont like to be told what to test for, and when left up to thm they will test for maybe five things, and then when you mention testing for hormones boy thats it, your public enemy number one, the sad thing about this fucked up system is i cant even go to the hospital and have any work done without a doctors referal, i mean i took my daughter to the hospital and asked to have a buccal swab done to test for bacteria and they coulndt do it because it wasnt ordered by a doctor, all a doctor does is blindly perscibe antibiotics, they dont even knoe if that particular antibiotic will kill a certain bacteria, but in the PDR all the bacterias a antibiotic kills is listed, the logical aproach would be to identify the bacteria then coose a antibiotic that kills that bacteria.
hold on iam getting off the subject,back on to the blood test
ok so i read get your blood work done if your going to take steroids,well it sounds easy, but its not , here iam picking doctors out of the phone book going to them and paying before i see them , well igot no cooperation, and they just asked what in the world i wanted all those test done?well i started being honest with them, and finally i found someone to do the blood work, but they didnt want to give me the report, and i had to go back in to have the doctor tell me all the values were in range, while i was waitng i got the chart when nobody was looking, i opened it and in great big highlighted words allover the paper were, steroids, nolvadex, ephedrine-caffiene- aspirin, this asshole wanted to look at my nipples and push on my liver, and lecture me on how bad steriods were for me, then when he told me they lower my immune system, i sat there thinking what a fucking idiot this guy doesnt even know the difference between a catabolic or a anabolic, only catabolics lower your immune sytem while anabolics raise it, but i idnt care what he said i just wanted my blood work, when they wouldnt give it to me, it took everything i had to not choke him, well to make a long story short , i got so sick of explaining my self and advocating steroids,after that i just started blurting out, i want these test done because i want to manipulate my hormone profile to match that of an elite athlete, this aproach made more sense i wanted my T3 in the high range, my testosterone in the high range, my cortisol in the low range my estrogen in the low range, this was just overwhelming information, they would then explain that there was no way anyone would perscibe drugs for this reason, then of course i had to explin of the pilot guidance act of 1988 and that i could leagally import the desired pharmacuiticals for personal use, well i went to 18 differnt doctors before i found someone to help me this guy was a top surgen in my town and turned out to have a little bit of knowlege, i go in there give blood and pick up the report 2 weeks later, i dont have to talk to any body this find took a substancial effort, finding a doctor is no easy thing

and iam shure that all this information is shared between doctors, via the internet, you can tell because when you go in for the first visit all is well then the secnd time around (after they get your history) its all different, heavan help a person who is ever diagnosed as malingering, it will haunt you the rest of your life

[anaholic]

I really do hate doctors

[anaholic]

in the USA there was a new law that went into effect that tricked people into thinking that they were getting more privacy and that no one can access your medical records, well the truth of the matter is it only keeps the general public from accessing them , what it actually did was make it very easy for any government agency or attorney to access your medical records, that right to privacy disclosure is a joke, just look at the fine print and it, it lists everyone who is excluded from the privacy, which is everyone from law enforcment to a privatley owned law firm. so by sighning this when you go to the doctor your allowing basically anyone access to your file without your consent

[tdrose]

Man you just said it!!! I was thinking about getting blood work done but i was nervous about the shared information thing. Once your name is in the BIG COMPUTER it can be accessed by anyone but the general public. Your life insurance could be worthless if you had a heart attack and died. They would just say you had been advised by your Dr not to take steroids and you kept doing it therefore your insurance is Void!!!

My wife had post partum depression for a few months after the kids was born. She went on Prozac asvised by her Kaiser Dr. A month later her insurance was raised 170 dollars due to being a HIGH RISK PATIENT. So she was now over 300 a month not counting me and our 2 kids. Obserd.

So she tried to get on another carrier and they rejected her, told her that due to being on Prozac she was uninsurable. She never disclosed the prozac, so obviously her records were shared. She was told that she had to be clean from it for 1 year.

So bottom line is the Dr you find better be a friend or someone you meet in the gym. Most Dr's dont know shit about steroids anyway.

[Bucket]

There are many doctors that are sensitive to the issues we face as AAS users. If your doctor is not then find a new one but don't sacrifice your health and not getting blood work done because you have issues with your doc. But it is your own life I guess.

[anaholic]

Please dont let anything i said stop you from getting blood work, the main point about what i wrote was it isnt easy to get so plan on spending some time finding a dotor

[tdrose]

No not at all, i still have intentions of getting my blood work done. and yes all of our health here on Alinboard is important thats why we all share information. And for that i am more than gratefull. I just dont plan on going to Kaiser and talking to my doctor about it. I just dont want to loose my health coverage for my family. But i did get in touch my a friend of mine today who is a competitive Bodybuilder who has a Dr who is very knowledgable about gear and is giving me his #. I can just pay him for the test and get what i need without going through all the BS at Kaiser.

Thanks for your input. Not just on this subject but all of your posts are very helpfull to me. I may have more crazy questions in the future. Thanks again.

[kcwoo]

I have run sus 250 at 500 mg a week decca at 400mg a week and even dbol at 40mg every day and sometimes I run winny with all that as well. I never get the small balls that every one talks about. Just the depression and not wanting to lift or just too tired to lift or the dive is gone. I get those kinds of things when I get off. So whats up I dont loose my balls just my drive to train. What helps with that. And why dont my balls shrink? not that I want them to but its stange cause I read that all the time and never had that problem just the other. I think I would rather loose ball size then feel like shit after a cycle. Any advice. :confused:

[anaholic]

i guess you are very fortunate that your test dont shut down, as i said i dont do the cycle thing anymore because i got depressed and lost my drive to lift when i wasnt on the shit, i now stay on year round, but iam not trying to get big and i just do low to moderate dosages, i also keep close tabs on my body, the only thing i really had a hard time with was cholesterol, it skyrocketed every time i got on the shit, iam talking over 300, i got it down to 210 by dowing liver cleanses, i dont think this year round aproach would work for anewbie, but more for someone who has been lifting awhile and has gotten as big as thier gona get

[jimmymac]

Regarding kcwoo's comments on testicle shrinkage, who knows what's going on in his case. But like anaholic, I too stay on a "maintenance" dose of test (250 mg/week) because I am nearly 60 years old and my normal production level had been low for years. I have only been using chemicals for a couple of years now and I "bump up" the gear to 750 test and 600 EQ or Deca for several weeks then "cruise" back down to the maintenace test dose for several weeks. I did notice testicular atrophy so I added 500 mg of HCG daily for 21 days recently and it did increase their size. I think I will do this regimen of 21 days of 500 mg of HCG every 6 months or so.

So for those of you who have noticed testicular shrinkage, I for one can testify that HCG does help.

[jimmymac]

Correction - In my last post I said that I inject 500 mg of HCG. I meant 500 iu's, diluted in 1 cc (mg) of water per day for 21 days.

[kcwoo]

I never go over 500 mg on test or anabolics so maybe thats why I never get the testical problem. I should try and go higher to see what results I get. I just thought the higher I went the higher I would have to go every time. I just didnt want to have health problems. With the dose's I have taken over the past 10 years. The only thing that I have to say about not going to high of a dose is that I never lost testi size. And if I did It was not notice it. I am going to try and go higher and see what happens. The downfall is Like I said before I feel like crap so I should stay on maintance dose what about on EQ or deca year round.