PCT for dummies...

[bodysculpt]

Namingly me.. :o

Guys, i wanna run a proper PCT also during cycle therapy but i know some of these products perform the same roles.. some are more popular than others and some are the latest and greatest..

to name a few..clomid, arimadex, letrozole, nolva, hcg, proviron, Raloxifen, toremifene citrate but the list goes on. Ive read a few of their profiles but it kinda goes right over my head.. some of these drugs sound kinda scarey too..

can anyone give a run down on whats the latest and greatest? what to use during cycle? etc? for example Nolva being used if symptoms occur but not good for prevtative measures?

all so confusing can anyone provide a simplified example if their profiles??

Thanks in advance

[bigpun81]

What does your cycle you plan on running look like. This is usually good information to know when designing PCT. I would always have Novladex on hand in case you get signs gyno. If you are using an aromatizing steroid you might want some anti-e's like arimidex to keep bloat down. You will definately want some clomid too and possibly HCG.

Here is an example of a cycle
week 1-6 - dianabol 30 mg everyday
week 1-12 - 500 mg a week of test E
week 1-12 - .25mg (1/4mg) everyday of Arimidex
Throughout cycle keep Novladex on hand for signs of gyno
(Do some research on what the signs of gyno are)

Ok now the dianabol and test e both aromatizing steroids. The Arimidex is not a steroid but called an Aromatose Inhibitor, meaning it stops the testosterone in your body from converting to estrogen(this conversion can give you gyno, make you retain water and give you fat deposits).

PCT starts at different times for different types of steroids used.
Test E has a longer half-life than other test. Here is an example of a PCT for the cycle listed above:

Week 12-13 - keep taking arimidex(.25mg ED) and no more steroids.
Week 13-16 - 20mg of novladex everyday
Week 14-16 - 300mg of clomid for the first day - 100mg of clomid for ten days after that, 50mgs of clomid for ten more days (21 total days)

[Bakes]

There seems to be alot of misconception about using HCG during you're post cycle therapy time frame...
Do NOT use HCG during PCT as it will shut down you're HPTA test levels just as if you were on cycle. The research is out there for those willing to put in the time and do the research....This topic has been discussed to death sooooo many times, just do the research and READ guys....

[OuchThatHurts]

There seems to be alot of misconception about using HCG during you're post cycle therapy time frame...
Do NOT use HCG during PCT as it will shut down you're HPTA test levels just as if you were on cycle. The research is out there for those willing to put in the time and do the research....This topic has been discussed to death sooooo many times, just do the research and READ guys....
Don't know you Bakes but you are exactly right. Use HCG DURING a cycle!!! And don't mess with your gains by taking 5000iu... stick with smaller doses 200-300iu EOD or every 3rd day and you will MAINTAIN size and softness/texture during your entire cycle. This also has been written to death.

[wideguy]

BTW for those who don't know, when the words size and softness are used I'm going to make the assumption that it's in regaurd to ones testicles.

Personally, I would not use hcg at all and that would include while running longer cycles (like 20 weeks). There's a decent amount of evidence that if you keep your estrogen levels at bay the entire time you're on cycle by proper use of an ai. ANd you have test as the last run AAS to end your cycle. That if you do a taper down with the test say from a high hrt dose for a week or 2 of test enth (like 200 or 150 mgs) and taper down to 25-50 mgs every week till around 4-6 weeks while tapering your ai dose at the same time then your recovery should be a breeze. Upon completion of that protocol you could then use some tamox or torimefene and your other pct ancillary's (clomid I guess but I hate it's sides and dont' think it's necessary). Use your natty T boosting supps at this time too, or at least that's what I like to do.

[OuchThatHurts]

I disagree. You don't want to taper anything. You'll just find yourself tired, losing weight, and probably with a cold. Go on fast and come off fast. You're saying 25-50mg test per week for 4-6wks post? You don't want to do that. And estrogen doesn't shrink your testicles! You can use 10 mg's of letro a day and you're still going to shrink. INEVITABLY! When your natural levels are suppressed, you shut down and you shrink. Some more than others but everyone WILL. HCG is extremely effective at bringing back normal size/shape/consistency to your testicles.

You need to explain some of that...

[wideguy]

This is from a thread a good friend (P-22) laid out fairly recently. I've done other pct's this is the one I prefere right now.



Using the enanthate ester, or the cypionate ester is a more simple approach to use, since less injections are needed, however a taper off can be done using test prop as well.

Of course if you were on a cycle using test enanthate, or cypionate, and stopped your injections at cycle's end, the testosterone would slowly continue to release from your injection sites, at a gradually smaller amount daily over a span of about a month, thereafter the doses would be too small to be suppressive to any extent. During this 'tapering' you should avoid all other AAS. -

Remember the goal is to transion from blood levels of supraphysiological amount of test, to normal levels of testosterone. During this time you want your body to be able to adjust to the lower levels of T. Things such as levels of SBGH need to be adjusted, as levels of this protein would certainly be higher - if you went from one week on 500mg of prop, to the next week off. By alowing your body to slowly readjust to the changing hormone levels, side effects, such as acne, mood swings, libido changes, can be minimized.

Now as circulating testosterone levels from the injected test enanthate/or cyp, fall off below what your body would normally produce, and provided estrogen levels have been kept at normal levels by using an Aromatase inhibitor, when your exogenous blood levels do begin to fall below what your body considers it's normal state the hpta will begin to work again, slowly increasing production of testosterone, as exogenous T levels continue to fall.

Now you can taper using Test prop - just devide your dose into 3 injections a week i.e 150mg/3 = 3 50mg injections equally spaced.

just continue to reduce the amount of prop used on a weekly basis.

I personally have found 6 weeks as a suitable taper period - but My cycles run for 8 months at a time.

When you consider that most people's pct last about that long, and that you body doesn't consider itself 'on steroids' once you reach a low enough dose of test in you body, irregardless of if it's exogenous or endogenous' This isn't that bad.

Now I as I have said, at the end of the taper once you had gone off everything, that would be the time to use nolva or clomid to get that extra 'boost'.




And to think that the entire reason for the use of hcg is testicular atrophy, which in fact doesn't even occur. There is no loss of tissue in the area that magically reappears once you inject hcg, the only difference is a decrease in blood flow to the area, as blood flow is regulated by tissue metabolism - the more a body part 'works', the higher it's requirements for nutrients and gas exchange. At the end of a cycle, when the hpta is no longer suppressed, and the testes begin to pick up the load on manufacturing testosterone, and maturing sperm, metabolic demands increase, which stimulates and increase in blood flow to the area, and consequently the testes become more enlarged - more engorged with blood.
The whole argument of 'keeping your testes in working order while on cycle' is one big farce, of a fallacy which supports an entire hcg protocol, that too many get sucked into. The fact of the matter is they are actually chronically subjecting their testes to high doses of synthetic LH on a regular basis, which isn't needed, and can't be good.


BTW, this isn't the ONLY way to go about pct. It is the one that involves the least amount of drugs, hence the least amount of sides. Also the aromatization of estrogen certainly does cause htpa suppression you dont' want to let that happen. I did kinda tie that into your testicles shrinking up and was wrong for saying that, sorry. Still, keeping you estrogen levels at bay the entire time with 1-.5 mg of arimidex throughout the cycle and then tapering at well makes the most sense. As for losing size, getting sick or whatever else you mentioned I have no idea why that would happen.

Which would be more dramatic? Going from 500 mgs of test a week to nothing at all. Or tapering down to an hrt dose and then allowing that dose (say 50 mgs) to slowly taper itself out of your system, allowing your natural test levels to restore themselves.

[wideguy]

This is from a thread a good friend (P-22) laid out fairly recently. I've done other pct's this is the one I prefere right now.



Using the enanthate ester, or the cypionate ester is a more simple approach to use, since less injections are needed, however a taper off can be done using test prop as well.

Of course if you were on a cycle using test enanthate, or cypionate, and stopped your injections at cycle's end, the testosterone would slowly continue to release from your injection sites, at a gradually smaller amount daily over a span of about a month, thereafter the doses would be too small to be suppressive to any extent. During this 'tapering' you should avoid all other AAS. -

Remember the goal is to transion from blood levels of supraphysiological amount of test, to normal levels of testosterone. During this time you want your body to be able to adjust to the lower levels of T. Things such as levels of SBGH need to be adjusted, as levels of this protein would certainly be higher - if you went from one week on 500mg of prop, to the next week off. By alowing your body to slowly readjust to the changing hormone levels, side effects, such as acne, mood swings, libido changes, can be minimized.

Now as circulating testosterone levels from the injected test enanthate/or cyp, fall off below what your body would normally produce, and provided estrogen levels have been kept at normal levels by using an Aromatase inhibitor, when your exogenous blood levels do begin to fall below what your body considers it's normal state the hpta will begin to work again, slowly increasing production of testosterone, as exogenous T levels continue to fall.

Now you can taper using Test prop - just devide your dose into 3 injections a week i.e 150mg/3 = 3 50mg injections equally spaced.

just continue to reduce the amount of prop used on a weekly basis.

I personally have found 6 weeks as a suitable taper period - but My cycles run for 8 months at a time.

When you consider that most people's pct last about that long, and that you body doesn't consider itself 'on steroids' once you reach a low enough dose of test in you body, irregardless of if it's exogenous or endogenous' This isn't that bad.

Now I as I have said, at the end of the taper once you had gone off everything, that would be the time to use nolva or clomid to get that extra 'boost'.




And to think that the entire reason for the use of hcg is testicular atrophy, which in fact doesn't even occur. There is no loss of tissue in the area that magically reappears once you inject hcg, the only difference is a decrease in blood flow to the area, as blood flow is regulated by tissue metabolism - the more a body part 'works', the higher it's requirements for nutrients and gas exchange. At the end of a cycle, when the hpta is no longer suppressed, and the testes begin to pick up the load on manufacturing testosterone, and maturing sperm, metabolic demands increase, which stimulates and increase in blood flow to the area, and consequently the testes become more enlarged - more engorged with blood.
The whole argument of 'keeping your testes in working order while on cycle' is one big farce, of a fallacy which supports an entire hcg protocol, that too many get sucked into. The fact of the matter is they are actually chronically subjecting their testes to high doses of synthetic LH on a regular basis, which isn't needed, and can't be good.


BTW, this isn't the ONLY way to go about pct. It is the one that involves the least amount of drugs, hence the least amount of sides. Also the aromatization of estrogen certainly does cause htpa suppression you dont' want to let that happen. I did kinda tie that into your testicles shrinking up and was wrong for saying that, sorry. Still, keeping you estrogen levels at bay the entire time with 1-.5 mg of arimidex throughout the cycle and then tapering at well makes the most sense. As for losing size, getting sick or whatever else you mentioned I have no idea why that would happen.

Which would be more dramatic? Going from 500 mgs of test a week to nothing at all. Or tapering down to an hrt dose and then allowing that dose (say 50 mgs) to slowly taper itself out of your system, allowing your natural test levels to restore themselves.

[OuchThatHurts]

This is from a thread a good friend (P-22) laid out fairly recently. I've done other pct's this is the one I prefere right now.

Which would be more dramatic? Going from 500 mgs of test a week to nothing at all. Or tapering down to an hrt dose and then allowing that dose (say 50 mgs) to slowly taper itself out of your system, allowing your natural test levels to restore themselves.
There are many ways to therapeutically restore your natural hormonal balance. If you continue to supplement with test, you're just going to continue to suppress and delay normal function. It's the drop in testosterone that signals the HPTA to begin its rhythms again. You'd want it to be dramatic. Besides, enanthate and cypionate naturally taper anyway over many weeks. HCG is used clinically to restore testicular function in males. The nolvadex is good because it combats estrogenic sides while actually increasing testosterone production - because remember, for the first week or two your test to estrogen levels are going to be off.

I understand where you're coming from but I've just never been a believer in tapering. Why delay getting your body back to ‘normal’ conditions longer than you have to?

[wideguy]

I can see we come from different schools of thought on this one. So far I'm pretty happy with the way this is turning out, and I've done the other styles of pct. I personally dont' like the idea of having to take as many or more drugs coming off cycle as I do when I was on. The most simple approach appeals to me vs. taking one drug to artificially mimick lh wich "might" desensitize you natty production leaving you suppresed on a whole other level. Then taking another drug to keep that from happening (nolva) which has a number of sides. BTW, if aromasin or torimifene would be a better but more expensive choice. Yes you might recover quicker but for me I'd rather take a little longer and not have to take that many more compounds.

As for hcg being used "clinically" that's completely fine. However, unless you are under a doc's supervision 100% of the way I wouldn't use it at all. Most people are not. Also as you noted when your test levels drop it allows your HTPA to restore function, so the taper gradually allows that to happen. Yes it might take longer then just dropping it cold turkey but I really question how great it is to go from 500-1 gram of exogenous test in your system and then crashing down to below baseline. It seems to make alot more sense that tappering down gradually and adjusting your doses based on how you feel in terms of libido, recovery, sense of well being, ect and dictating you dose based on that. Anyway that's what seems to work the best for me right now, and perhaps down the road I'll try AR's method.

[OuchThatHurts]

I can see we come from different schools of thought on this one. So far I'm pretty happy with the way this is turning out, and I've done the other styles of pct. I personally dont' like the idea of having to take as many or more drugs coming off cycle as I do when I was on. The most simple approach appeals to me vs. taking one drug to artificially mimick lh wich "might" desensitize you natty production leaving you suppresed on a whole other level. Then taking another drug to keep that from happening (nolva) which has a number of sides. BTW, if aromasin or torimifene would be a better but more expensive choice. Yes you might recover quicker but for me I'd rather take a little longer and not have to take that many more compounds.

As for hcg being used "clinically" that's completely fine. However, unless you are under a doc's supervision 100% of the way I wouldn't use it at all. Most people are not. Also as you noted when your test levels drop it allows your HTPA to restore function, so the taper gradually allows that to happen. Yes it might take longer then just dropping it cold turkey but I really question how great it is to go from 500-1 gram of exogenous test in your system and then crashing down to below baseline. It seems to make alot more sense that tappering down gradually and adjusting your doses based on how you feel in terms of libido, recovery, sense of well being, ect and dictating you dose based on that. Anyway that's what seems to work the best for me right now, and perhaps down the road I'll try AR's method.
Sure! Do exactly what you think is best for you. That's between just you and maybe your doc. If you want to do a drug-free PCT than perhaps your method will be most effective. I don't know what AR is. I'm only going by the clinical data and pharmacology of the PCT meds. Remember, that's what they are there for. Maybe not always what they were designed for but most are used in fertility clinics and so forth to help men. Good luck to you.

[wideguy]

AR is Anthony Roberts and his pct sounds alot like what you reccomend.

As for the pct I follow it's pretty close to one that Cy Wilson outlined awhile back, with some variations. It was reccomended and used many times by my friend P-22 who's working towards his doctorate and obviously spent hundreds of hours in the medical community.

[OuchThatHurts]

AR is Anthony Roberts and his pct sounds alot like what you reccomend.

As for the pct I follow it's pretty close to one that Cy Wilson outlined awhile back, with some variations. It was reccomended and used many times by my friend P-22 who's working towards his doctorate and obviously spent hundreds of hours in the medical community.
Ohhhh.... well why didn't you say so???

[wideguy]

Yeah AR and P-22 had a long thread on their feeling on PCT over on the t-mag board. Both very intelligent guys and it was alot of fun to read.