Myth about esters

[Machola]

a lot of people think short esters(maily test prop) cause less bloat and estrogen conversion sides compared to long esters(cyp, en). esters don't cause sides, the hormones do. the level of aas in your body is the only thing that causes sides. maybe 500mg/week prop does have less sides than 500/week cyp but its not directly related to ester. the reason for sides as stated above would be your body had a higher level of test from cyp than prop... not sure why that would be the case. you would think the opposite would be true since prop ester is lighter and has more actual hormone per mg compared to long esters. but that is my explanation... i know its not important just a hairbrained theory of mine:p. would really like to hear what you guys think. i hope jegg or crfpilot chime in too.

[Hockey265]

Got this from the ester report

ACTIONS OF DIFFERENT ESTERS

There are many different esters that are used with anabolic/androgenic steroids, but again, they all do basically the same thing. Esters vary only in their ability to reduce a steroid's water solubility. An ester like propionate for example will slow the release of a steroid for a few days, while the duration will be weeks with a decanoate ester. Esters have no effect on the tendency for the parent steroid to convert to estrogen or DHT (dihydrotestosterone: a more potent metabolite) nor will it effect the overall muscle-building potency of the compound. Any differences in results and side effects that may be noted by bodybuilders who have used various esterified versions of the same base steroid are just issues of timing. Testosterone enanthate causes estrogen related problems more readily than Sustanon, simply because with enanthate testosterone levels will peak and trough much sooner (1-2 week release duration as opposed to 3 or 4). Likewise testosterone suspension is the worst in regards to gyno and water bloat because blood hormone levels peak so quickly with this drug. Instead of waiting weeks for testosterone levels to rise to their highest point, here we are at most looking at a couple of days. Given an equal blood level of testosterone, there would be no difference in the rate of aromatization or DHT conversion between different esters. There is simply no mechanism for this to be possible.

There is however one way that we can say an ester does technically effect potency; it is calculated in the steroid weight. The heavier the ester chain, the greater is its percentage of the total weight. In the case of testosterone enanthate for example, 250mg of esterified steroid (testosterone enanthate) is equal to only 180mg of free testosterone. 70mgs out of each 250mg injection is the weight of the ester. If we wanted to be really picky, we could consider enanthate slightly MORE potent than cypionate (I know this goes against popular thinking) as its ester chain contains one less carbon atom (therefore taking up a slightly smaller percentage of total weight). Propionate would of course come out on top of the three, releasing a measurable (but not significant) amount more testosterone per injection than cypionate or enanthate.

[Machola]

Esters have no effect on the tendency for the steroid to convert to estrogen or DHT.

Propionate, releasing a measurable (but not significant) amount more testosterone per injection than cypionate or enanthate.

good post... thats what i thought. so the opposite of what people are reporting should be true. many people say prop causes less sides but according to this it should cause more.:confused:

[Benner]

Some of ya'll are just too smart for your own good LOL!:D Good info guys. I just love the propionate ester for myself, it seems to have virtually no bloat effect on me

[ojs]

I see Test Prop dosages between 225-450mg/wk. Where as I usually see Test C or E dosages staying between 400-750mg/wk. I'm sure that also has a lot to do with it.

[Hockey265]

I see Test Prop dosages between 225-450mg/wk. Where as I usually see Test C or E dosages staying between 400-750mg/wk. I'm sure that also has a lot to do with it.
Thats my thinking to. If you ran an equal amount of test prop as you do Test C or E you would probably have more sides.

[thesinner]

Molar equivalents to TNE per gram

Test Base (TNE) 1
Test Propionate 0.800105
Test Phenylisocaproate 0.66064
Test Isocaproate 0.71647
Test Decanoate 0.62883
Test Enanthate 0.69234
Test Cypionate 0.69905
Sustanon 250 0.67370
Sustanon 100 0.70734

As you can see, there's ~10% difference between prop and cyp

[Ed17447]

Just showing different opinions. There's a lot of people that don't know shit about the subject, including myself. I know that different esters affects me differently, that I know for a fact, because I know my body and how each ester works for me. But the truth is there's too many people with a different opinion on esters, and the way I see it, no one really knows why.

[Machola]

nice post ed. monkey study was interesting. it backs up my theory perfectly. i don't agree with roberts' interpretation of it. what i take from it is, testosterone is testosterone. prop is just an inferior ester. compared to test cyp, test prop has a weaker effect mg per mg so of course it will have less conversion to estrogen. makes me think that people running cutting cycles with 100mg prop eod(350mg/week) could get the same effect from 100-150mg cyp/week.
Even a two- to threefold higher dose of the shortest acting ester studied did not fully achieve the effects of longer esters concerning gonadal and metabolic functions.




just for fun look at this:

Does ester length also influence 5a-Reduction? I suspect it may. But in this case, I would imagine that the long esters convert less readily to DHT (though I guess I could be wrong).

this shows what an idiot roberts is... he just cited a study that shows longer esters are stronger in every way compared to shorter esters(anabolic activity, estrogen conversion, hpta suppresion) and then through his twisted thought process he "suspects" dht conversion will do the opposite. what an idiot:confused:. he's good at finding studies but has no common sense to understand and interpret them.

[Hockey265]

nice post ed. monkey study was interesting. it backs up my theory perfectly. i don't agree with roberts' interpretation of it. what i take from it is, testosterone is testosterone. prop is just an inferior ester. compared to test cyp, test prop has a weaker effect mg per mg so of course it will have less conversion to estrogen. makes me think that people running cutting cycles with 100mg prop eod(350mg/week) could get the same effect from 100-150mg cyp/week.




just for fun look at this:

this shows what an idiot roberts is... he just cited a study that shows longer esters are stronger in every way compared to shorter esters(anabolic activity, estrogen conversion, hpta suppresion) and then through his twisted thought process he "suspects" dht conversion will do the opposite. what an idiot:confused:. he's good at finding studies but has no common sense to understand and interpret them.
HAHA!! Yeah you could tell Anthony Roberts that 2 + 2=4 and in his head he would "suspect" that the answer is 5. What a moron.

I think you may be on to something about running a low dose of cyp for cutting. Maybe one of us should give it a try.

[ojs]

nice post ed. monkey study was interesting. it backs up my theory perfectly. i don't agree with roberts' interpretation of it. what i take from it is, testosterone is testosterone. prop is just an inferior ester. compared to test cyp, test prop has a weaker effect mg per mg so of course it will have less conversion to estrogen. makes me think that people running cutting cycles with 100mg prop eod(350mg/week) could get the same effect from 100-150mg cyp/week. Machola, you're connecting the dots nicely. Forget Roberts. We know he's an idiot. Troy Zuccolotto told me something a while back that backs what you're saying though. He told me if my client wasn't going to get on stage to use Test Cyp @300mg/wk to cut. If he was prepping for a show to use Test Prop @100mg EOD. Now it finally makes sense. The issue is probably not the effectiveness in cutting. It's more likely a question of how quickly you'll be able to shed the water when you get off the Test. With the shorter esters you're dropping water in 2-3 days. With the Longer esters you'll have to wait as much as 2 weeks.

[lola26]

good info.. nice post.

[ironfreak83]

Machola, you're connecting the dots nicely. Forget Roberts. We know he's an idiot. Troy Zuccolotto told me something a while back that backs what you're saying though. He told me if my client wasn't going to get on stage to use Test Cyp @300mg/wk to cut. If he was prepping for a show to use Test Prop @100mg EOD. Now it finally makes sense. The issue is probably not the effectiveness in cutting. It's more likely a question of how quickly you'll be able to shed the water when you get off the Test. With the shorter esters you're dropping water in 2-3 days. With the Longer esters you'll have to wait as much as 2 weeks.

now that makes a lot of sense.

[anhuka]

good info good post

[mrvtwin80]

Great post!

[flart]

I see "Sticky" potential - great post and follow-up

[Machola]

WOW!...:confused: you're kind of all over the place bro... are you sure you replied to the right thread?:confused::D Before long - a newbie will read this - think he's got it down pat and then think "If I run this with a short ester and its not giving me the same conversion as a long estergood. that means they learned something. - well - I will run more of it to compensate if they were smart they would buy aas with a longer esterand maybe throw in some Masteron to harden up my 23% BF ass, maybe some DBOL for a kicker, oh and IF83 said he got great gains off of Halo taking it on wo days, oops don't forget that EQ will bring out that vascularity and throw a couple hundred Deca in there every week for the joints - Damn I got a good cycle". don't know where that came from. this thread doesn't talk about that.Think about it from a personal point guys - Are you the kind of guy that can pinn everyday or at worst EOD?? If you started counting sites you think you can pinn the answer is NO. So you run a short ester because ED said he didn't get any water gain from it - but you start missing pinns here and there - so maybe you double a couple up - next thing is you need so Letro for that damn marble you feel behind your nipple because you started spikeing blood levels. Point in the ramble is - Do what is most convenient and start something you know you can finish properly - don't do it because of some mumbo jumbo you picked up from Anthony "can go fuck himself" Roberts. dude, did you read the thread at all or are you just posting nonsense? the thread is in support or long esters over short not pinning ED. no one agreed with with anthony roberts. If you are designing a cycle around what you read gets bigger and better gains - you are designing a cylce that you will fail with - are you suggesting newbies should take aas without reading/researching how to do it safely and correctly?I speak from experience. Make the AAS simple - and wrap your head around a great training and diet program. genius! i've never heard of that concept before.:rolleyes:Here is an example guys - had a kid approach me last week about wanting to gain weight. I asked him what he'd eaten today and the day before - a couple hotdogs and a bag of chips summed it up washed down with some energy drink shit. The kid weighs all of 145 and wants to know what he needs to get from GNC to make him bigger. He doesn't wo - says he does pushups everymorn - I don't even believe that. I told him to find some weights and use them - start stuffin his face with everything he could find that had bleed at one time - and if he couldn't get 6,000 calories down that way - get some cheap gainer just for the calories. This kid is far from needing to keep up with carbs and protein - he just needs food and calories. Well - he shows back up with some MuscleTech CellTech shit that the girl at the GNC gauranteed he would gain 7 pds in 7 day with - cost him $69 - but he had this whole mumbo jumbo speach about how he had researched it and it was the best thing for him. This didn't have anything to do with aas (YET) but it proves we just overthink shit - make everything too complicated. SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY If Long esters are more convenient for you to maintain - do Long Esters. Sorry to Ramble -- I just see to much of guys Reinventing the Wheel lately - I have just about quit posting as I have nothing positive to say lately and hate to continue pissing everyone off. Sorry if I touched a nerve

:confused:...if you research a 1st aas cycle you'll get exactly what you're talking about. SIMPLICITY. 500mg test e or c/week, eat like crazy, train 3-4 days/week, etc. so how are people gonna find that info without reading and researching?:)

[Ed17447]

Here's a hypothetical question.

Our bodies are smarter than we are, thats a fact. So knowing that fact, isn't it fair to say that our bodies will know the difference with a chemical with a different chemical structures. I would say yes, and the body will react different with a chemical + or - one carbon atom. What I'm trying say is, it's possible that the body knows the difference, and will react in different ways according to chemical structure.

[High9]

I see Test Prop dosages between 225-450mg/wk. Where as I usually see Test C or E dosages staying between 400-750mg/wk. I'm sure that also has a lot to do with it.

Something obvious, but Prop has a lighter ester so is thus more potent in terms of milligram weight, which may explain the lower dosing.

I did the calculation and actually its pretty negligible.
300mg prop has the same potency of testosterone as 341mg cyp.
Meh... i don't bloat at all :D (Haven't tried deca though)

[ironfreak83]

IF83 ALSO SAYS THAT ONLY YOU CAN PREVENT FOREST FIRES!

[anhuka]

and what about sus or ST with diffrent ester´s attached what´s your opinions on that bro´s?

[BlueVenom]

Why not just take out all sugars from your diet to have zero bloating?
That's the main reason why we hold so much water retention.
Dexter Jackson told me that!

[anhuka]

Why not just take out all sugars from your diet to have zero bloating?
That's the main reason why we hold so much water retention.
Dexter Jackson told me that!

it´s a good point here 2, when ppl use test with long ester normaly they diet bulk so they hold more water when they do prop their on a restrict diet without sugars that´s could be the main reason for the misurdestanding about ester´s

[Machola]

i didn't think of that. that's another factor for sure.

[Ed17447]

I can use 500mg/cyp, switch over to 500mg/prop, not change my diet what so ever and have less water from the prop.

[Machola]

and what about sus or ST with diffrent ester´s attached what´s your opinions on that bro´s?
Molar equivalents to TNE per gram

Test Base (TNE) 1
Test Propionate 0.800105
Test Phenylisocaproate 0.66064
Test Isocaproate 0.71647
Test Decanoate 0.62883
Test Enanthate 0.69234
Test Cypionate 0.69905
Sustanon 250 0.67370
Sustanon 100 0.70734

As you can see, there's ~10% difference between prop and cyp
study results showed longer esters are stronger than shorter esters mg per mg. so reading sinner's post the smaller the number the more anabolic. when you average the esters in sust(like in sinners post) its lower than cyp. logic would say it should be more anabolic than cyp. impossible to say though without its own study.

[BlueVenom]

I can use 500mg/cyp, switch over to 500mg/prop, not change my diet what so ever and have less water from the prop.

Sure, it could very well be a fact that cyp holds more water than prop.
But your diet has a lot to do with it. Different chemical reactions taking place with another chemical reaction.

Whenever I am on, especially when I start to head to the tanning bed, I stay away from sugars. The bloating in my face from tanning and being on AAS is incredibly high. When I stop all sugars from my diet, my bloating is minimal and not so much. A lot of everything to do with your cycle has to do with your eating as well.

[thesinner]

study results showed longer esters are stronger than shorter esters mg per mg. so reading sinner's post the smaller the number the more anabolic. when you average the esters in sust(like in sinners post) its lower than cyp. logic would say it should be more anabolic than cyp. impossible to say though without its own study.

there are also factors of mass transfer which those #'s I posted ignore. Longer esters will allow for a more stable serum concentration.

With regard to maitaining high serum concentration, esterless transdermals (believe it or not) are even superior to long esters. Of course, there are a series of other underlying issues which make transdermals the less popular choice. (i.e. absorption, odor, application, transmissibility, etc.).

[Rubix]

this forum reminds me of watching t.v. I was searching for different types of protein to see if anyone had posted a survey or anything on protein brand preferences, and ended up reading this whole thing along with peoples' responses.. definitely worth the time spent, though.

[Rubix]

point taken.....I'm off my kick on the newbies now anyway...I'm starting to see that most are fly by night newbies - they are here for a couple days just beating the board to death with ???? and then nothing. I'm getting the wierd ass pm's like a few others and I just delete and move on unless its one of you guys I recognize. Sorry to have pulled thread off course guys - I have enjoyed reading the discussions.

did it happen to look like this:

Hi,
My name is Dana and I was wondering if you could please give me some advice. I have been training for 2 years and I think I have reached my physical peak. I am considering steroids, but I have placed several orders with no luck as I seem to be getting nothing but scammers. You seem like you know your stuff, my personal e-mail is danaperry86@yahoo.com and was hoping you could direct me in the right place or at least give me a hand if you don't want to give a legit source.

Thank you for your time,
Dana

yeah i didnt respond either. the guy has 0 posts. first i got paranoid and figured it was a fed, then i wondered if it was a mod or something just screwing with us..

[Hockey265]

did it happen to look like this:

Hi,
My name is Dana and I was wondering if you could please give me some advice. I have been training for 2 years and I think I have reached my physical peak. I am considering steroids, but I have placed several orders with no luck as I seem to be getting nothing but scammers. You seem like you know your stuff, my personal e-mail is danaperry86@yahoo.com and was hoping you could direct me in the right place or at least give me a hand if you don't want to give a legit source.

Thank you for your time,
Dana

yeah i didnt respond either. the guy has 0 posts. first i got paranoid and figured it was a fed, then i wondered if it was a mod or something just screwing with us..
Sounds like the feds to me. Seems like they've been out in force lately here on the board. Feds and spammers. I'm getting sick of hearing about Viagra and xanax.

[mccollumstacy]

did it happen to look like this:

Hi,
My name is Dana and I was wondering if you could please give me some advice. I have been training for 2 years and I think I have reached my physical peak. I am considering steroids, but I have placed several orders with no luck as I seem to be getting nothing but scammers. You seem like you know your stuff, my personal e-mail is danaperry86@yahoo.com and was hoping you could direct me in the right place or at least give me a hand if you don't want to give a legit source.

Thank you for your time,
Dana

yeah i didnt respond either. the guy has 0 posts. first i got paranoid and figured it was a fed, then i wondered if it was a mod or something just screwing with us..


I've had a few that I just past off and paid no attention to. The most suspicious one made note of a post I made about needing pain meds for my back probs -- He went on to sympathize with my probs and being run around about scripts and what not. He finally came out and asked me for my source on Oxycotin - which I don't think I ever said I took in the first place - I did reply to him and told him my source was my physician and the local pharmacy with legit scripts. I told him I didn't condone the buy / sell of illegal substances of any type and would appreciate his not responding to me again. This really touched a nerve with me. I deleted all my pms a while ago as it gets full pretty fast - and he didn't reply to me. I'm not to worried about them keyin in on me from this board use - as this is not proof of my use or posession. All this proves is that I have enough sense to read and reply to messages and that I have a novice knowlege of aas compounds. But when they start asking me ??? about rec drugs or narcotics - I get pissed - as I do nothing illegal in regards to them. I and a few others probably need to just cool it on here for a while and let the interest die.

[Rubix]

I've had a few that I just past off and paid no attention to. The most suspicious one made note of a post I made about needing pain meds for my back probs -- He went on to sympathize with my probs and being run around about scripts and what not. He finally came out and asked me for my source on Oxycotin - which I don't think I ever said I took in the first place - I did reply to him and told him my source was my physician and the local pharmacy with legit scripts. I told him I didn't condone the buy / sell of illegal substances of any type and would appreciate his not responding to me again. This really touched a nerve with me. I deleted all my pms a while ago as it gets full pretty fast - and he didn't reply to me. I'm not to worried about them keyin in on me from this board use - as this is not proof of my use or posession. All this proves is that I have enough sense to read and reply to messages and that I have a novice knowlege of aas compounds. But when they start asking me ??? about rec drugs or narcotics - I get pissed - as I do nothing illegal in regards to them. I and a few others probably need to just cool it on here for a while and let the interest die.

same here.. i just love how the general public jumps to the conclusion that "if you take steroids... you obviously take coke, pot, xanax, pot, acid........"

[MadMatt28]

Since we have so many scientists around here, would you like to experiment on me? I'm a really good TEST dummy. I can be any kind of Test dummy you want me to be, Test E. dummy, Test C. dummy or a Test A. dummy. I'll do nothing but lift weights, eat and shit. How does this sound?

[Rubix]

Since we have so many scientists around here, would you like to experiment on me? I'm a really good TEST dummy. I can be any kind of Test dummy you want me to be, Test E. dummy, Test C. dummy or a Test A. dummy. I'll do nothing but lift weights, eat and shit. How does this sound?

sounds like deja vu and time to add another name to the endless list of people i know who've juiced and gained nothing.

[MadMatt28]

sounds like deja vu and time to add another name to the endless list of people i know who've juiced and gained nothing.

Actually,I find the info on threads like this one very helpful. I do come here to learn. However, while learning I try not to over think things too. I enjoy the work others do because it allows me to just move with the flow. I learn and I do. Every now and then I crack a joke. This doesn't reflect anything about my training or diet or what I've learned about AAS. I do understand where you are coming from because I've been a witness to all of those who use AAS and don't do what they need to do to make or keep progress. I respect your input. My large stash of PCT products has been created by me reading threads like this one. Keep up the good work guys!

[fatboybbw]

Very good information thanks guys

[cpesloco]

good info in this thread!

[Machola]

bump for more opinions. would be nice to get OTH's thoughts on this... unfortunately the thread went a bad way quickly but there is good info on the first 2 pages.