cutton on test e and tren ace

[ironraider52]

if i was to do a very hardcore cut on test e and tren ace, wuld i lose much muscle.

by hardcore cut i mean all meat no carbs, and only about 1200-1800 cals a day. i hear that on a cycle like tren and testt you can eat this little and not expect to lose much muscle, or even strength.

[brazil]

Less than 125 grams of carbs daily is bad for your heart. There are many processes and body functions that use carbs. Remember the heart is also a muscle. Muscles use stored sugar to contract.

[ojs]

Less than 125 grams of carbs daily is bad for your heart. There are many processes and body functions that use carbs. Remember the heart is also a muscle. Muscles use stored sugar to contract.I'm fucked then. I've been on high fat and very low carbs (under 40g/day) for about 9 years. I only eat carbs on Saturday. I've never felt better. And my muscles respond very well to this type of eating.

I'm thinking my heart and nervous system including my brain function very well on low carb due to my body's very efficient gluconeogenesis.

From Wikipedia:
Gluconeogenesis is the generation of glucose from non-sugar carbon substrates like pyruvate, lactate, glycerol, and glucogenic amino acids.

The vast majority of gluconeogenesis takes place in the liver and, to a smaller extent, in the cortex of kidneys. This process occurs during periods of fasting, starvation, or intense exercise and is highly endergonic. Gluconeogenesis is often associated with ketosis.

[Krom]

Less than 125 grams of carbs daily is bad for your heart. There are many processes and body functions that use carbs. Remember the heart is also a muscle. Muscles use stored sugar to contract.

Sorry brazil. I don't buy this at all.

[Krom]

if i was to do a very hardcore cut on test e and tren ace, wuld i lose much muscle.

by hardcore cut i mean all meat no carbs, and only about 1200-1800 cals a day. i hear that on a cycle like tren and testt you can eat this little and not expect to lose much muscle, or even strength.

Dude, no one can answer your question for sure, especially since you posted nothing about you diet or stats but IMO 1200-1800 cal ED would have me losing too much muscle. Here's a tip find your daily caloric maintenance levels and cut that by %10. If you try and shed the fat too fast you'll lose muscle.

[da-sol]

Less than 125 grams of carbs daily is bad for your heart. There are many processes and body functions that use carbs. Remember the heart is also a muscle. Muscles use stored sugar to contract.

I disagree bro. Many people eat less carbs all the time.
I eat less then 200G ED.

[jjgonz]

i dont agree either...i eat under 50g a day and have a very close family friend whos a cardiologist so i get checked often...no probs here...and iron put your stats up height weight age bf% etc so we can give you a better idea on the calories but krom is on point with the 10% cut thats usually ideal for most...may want to consider test prop instead of test enan just my .02

[No-Go]

No cabrs at all will have you looking like a zombie with no energy plus you will feel like shit from the tren. Oh and why would you use a long ester with a short ester? In some circumstances i can understand it but this isn't one of them?

[Krom]

No cabrs at all will have you looking like a zombie with no energy plus you will feel like shit from the tren.

Yes for the first two weeks but not after that. In fact I feel better on a low carb diet due to stable blood sugar. I lose fat fast, keep muscle and I'm never that hungry. If you feel like shit on a low carb diet its because your eating too many carbs and you never make the shift over to ketosis. Your brain gets starved for carbs but small amounts still keep it from switching over to metabolizing ketones. This can make you feel waked out.

[Krom]

I disagree bro. Many people eat less carbs all the time.
I eat less then 200G ED.

I eat less than 30 most days. On a low/no crab diet its important to get in your EFA's.

[jjgonz]

Yes for the first two weeks but not after that. In fact I feel better on a low carb diet due to stable blood sugar. I lose fat fast, keep muscle and I'm never that hungry. If you feel like shit on a low carb diet its because your eating too many carbs and you never make the shift over to ketosis. Your brain gets starved for carbs but small amounts still keep it from switching over to metabolizing ketones. This can make you feel waked out.

bumped :cool:

[Alin]

carb consumption is purely individual. some people cant even do daily functions clearly on too low of carbs.

[ojs]

I eat less than 30 most days. On a low/no crab diet its important to get in your EFA's.
Bump!

[ojs]

carb consumption is purely individual. some people cant even do daily functions clearly on too low of carbs.Agreed. Some people will feel like zombies on low carb. And others, like myself, feel better.

[mrvtwin80]

If nothing else at least have your carbs after you work out its the best time to replace the glycogen in the muscle.

[brazil]

I'm fucked then. I've been on high fat and very low carbs (under 40g/day) for about 9 years. I only eat carbs on Saturday. I've never felt better. And my muscles respond very well to this type of eating.

I'm thinking my heart and nervous system including my brain function very well on low carb due to my body's very efficient gluconeogenesis.

From Wikipedia:
Gluconeogenesis is the generation of glucose from non-sugar carbon substrates like pyruvate, lactate, glycerol, and glucogenic amino acids.

The vast majority of gluconeogenesis takes place in the liver and, to a smaller extent, in the cortex of kidneys. This process occurs during periods of fasting, starvation, or intense exercise and is highly endergonic. Gluconeogenesis is often associated with ketosis.

Well i guess for you it works, but according to health and fitness magazine I had read this is what I understood. How do you manage to have less than 40 carbs per day and stay fit? You never eat more or you mean you have low carb days constantly? Im no doctor just stating what I understood to be correct. How do you eat so low of carbs anyway? 40gs is like two slices of bread!

[steak]

Less than 125 grams of carbs daily is bad for your heart. There are many processes and body functions that use carbs. Remember the heart is also a muscle. Muscles use stored sugar to contract.

heart needs potassium to function, while brain needs sugar:)

[steak]

I'm fucked then. I've been on high fat and very low carbs (under 40g/day) for about 9 years. I only eat carbs on Saturday. I've never felt better. And my muscles respond very well to this type of eating.

I'm thinking my heart and nervous system including my brain function very well on low carb due to my body's very efficient gluconeogenesis.

From Wikipedia:
Gluconeogenesis is the generation of glucose from non-sugar carbon substrates like pyruvate, lactate, glycerol, and glucogenic amino acids.

The vast majority of gluconeogenesis takes place in the liver and, to a smaller extent, in the cortex of kidneys. This process occurs during periods of fasting, starvation, or intense exercise and is highly endergonic. Gluconeogenesis is often associated with ketosis.

if it aint boke dont fix it!:D

[brazil]

I wasnt trying to "fool" anyone, and realize with only three years lifting/studying I have alot to learn in the future. Also everything i have learned has been here in brazil, some of it in portugese. Here is some evidence of heart problems with a ketogenic diet the study was on children but none the less it involves the heart.

Until now, the diet was thought to have few side effects. But the Children's Hospital Medical Center of Cincinnati researchers initiated a study after a 5-year-old patient on the diet developed dilated cardiomyopathy (an enlarged, poorly functioning heart muscle) and a prolonged QT interval (an electrical abnormality that can lead to a fast heart rhythm and sudden death).

The researchers found that out of 21 children on the ketogenic diet, 15 percent had these abnormalities. When taken off of the diet, the problems went away.

The problems may be related to a substance called beta-hydroxybutyrate and the high level of acid in the blood with which it is associated, according to Thomas Best, M.D., a physician in the Children's Hospital Medical Center of Cincinnati Cardiology Division and the study's lead author.

[brazil]

heres another concerning the health risks for adults.

How can you eat all the fat and grease that you want and still lose weight? Humans are primates; genetically and structurally, we closely resemble the gorilla. We are designed, just like the other large primates, to survive predominantly on plant foods rich in carbohydrates. When the human body finds that it does not have enough carbohydrates to run its "machinery" properly, it produces ketones, an emergency fuel that can be utilized in times of crisis.

At rest, the brain consumes about 80 percent of our energy needs. Under normal conditions, the brain can utilize only glucose as fuel. However, the human organism has evolved a remarkable adaptation that enables it to survive for long periods of time without food.

In the first few days of no carbohydrate fuel (food), the body's glucose reserves dwindle and the only way we can produce enough fuel for our hungry brain is by breaking down muscle tissue to manufacture glucose. Glucose cannot be manufactured from fat. Fortunately, our body has a built-in mechanism that allows us to conserve our muscle tissue by metabolizing a more efficient energy source--our fat supply.

After a day or two of not eating, the body dips into its fats reserves to produce ketones as an emergency fuel. As the level of ketones rise in our bloodstream, the brain accepts ketones as an alternative fuel. In this manner, we conserve muscle and increase survival during periods of food deprivation.

Atkins' dietary recommendations prey on his survival mechanism. When we restrict carbohydrates so markedly, the body thinks we care calorically deprived and ketosis results. The body begins to lose fat, even if we are consuming plenty of high-fat foods, as Atkins recommends. Once you start consuming carbohydrate-containing fruits, vegetables, or beans, the ketosis ends and the meat and fat become fattening again. Meat consumption leads to weigh gain, unless you have caused a carbohydrate-deficiency ketosis.

To make matters even worse, you pay an extra penalty from a diet so high in fat and protein to generate a chronic ketosis. Besides the increased cancer risk, your kidneys are placed under greater stress and will age more rapidly. It can take many, many years for such damage to be detected by blood tests. By the time the blood reflects the abnormality, irreversible damage may have already occurred. Blood tests that monitor kidney function typically do not begin to detect problems until more than 90 percent of the kidneys have been destroyed.

Protein is metabolized in the liver, and the nitrogenous wastes generated are broken down and then excreted by the kidney. These wastes must be eliminated for the body to maintain normal purity and a stable state of equilibrium. Most doctors are taught in medial school that a high-protein diet ages the kidney.1 What has been accepted as the normal age-related loss in renal function may really be a cumulative injury secondary to the heavy pressure imposed on the kidney by our high-protein eating habits.2

By the eighth decade of life, Americans lost about 30 percent of their kidney function.3 Many people develop kidney problems at young ages under the high-protein stress. Low-protein diets are routinely used to treat patients with liver and kidney failure.4 A recent multitrial analysis showed that reducing protein intake for patients with kidney disease decreased kidney-related death by about 40 percent.5

Diabetics, who are at increased risk of kidney disease, are extremely sensitive to the stresses a high-protein diet place on the kidney.6 In a large, multicentered study involving 1,521 patients, most of the diabetics who ate too much animal protein had lost over half their kidney function, and almost all the damage was irreversible.7 In my practice, I have seen numerous patients who have experienced significant worsening of their kidney function after attempting weight loss and diabetic control with high protein diets. Coincidence? I think not. Damage from such lopsided nutritional advice can be very serious.

Ketogenic diets, like Atkins, have been used to treat children with seizure disorders when medication alone is unresponsive. Medical studies reveal that these diets can result in serious health consequences. Investigators report a greater potential for adverse events than had ever been anticipated. The dangers of these high-protein diets include hemolytic anemia, abnormal liver function, renal tubular acidosis, and spontaneous bone fractures (despite calcium supplementation).8 Kidney stones are another risk of high protein diets.9 These studies point out that there are many subtle adverse outcomes not being attributed to this dangerous way of eating. One outcome is the Atkins Diet's relative inability to lower cholesterol when compared to my vegetable-based, nutrient-dense diet-style.

Tomorrow we will look at the increased risk of cancer associated with the Atkins' diet.

1. Kasiske, B.L., J.D. Lakatua, J.Z. Ma, and T.A. Louis. 1998. A meta-analysis of the effects of dietary protein restriction on the rate of decline of renal function. Am. J. Kidney Dis. 31 (6): 954-61; Holm, E.A., and K. Solling. 1996. Dietary protein restriction and progression of chronic renal insufficiency: a review of literature. J. Intern. Med. 239 (2): 99-104.

2. Brenner, B.M., T.W. Meyer, and T.H. Hostetter. 1982. Dietary protein intake and the progressive nature of kidney disease: the role of the hemodynamically mediated glomerular injury in the pathogensis of progressive glomerular sclerosis in aging, renal ablation and intrinsic renal disease. N. Eng. J. Med. 307 (11): 652-59.

3. Clark, B. 2000. Biology of renal aging in humans. Adv. Ren. Replace. Ther. 7 (1): 11-21.

4. Rosman, J.B. 1995. Protein restriction in diet therapy in chronic kidney insufficiency. Ther. Umsch. 52 (8): 515-18; Zeller, K.R. 1991. Low-protein diets in renal disease. Diabetes care 14 (9): 856-66.

5. Fouque, D., P. Wang, M. Laville, and J.P. Boissel. 2000. Low protein diets delay end-stage renal disease in non-diabetic adults with chronic renal failure. Nephrol. Dial. Transplant 15 (12): 1986-92.

6. Gin, H., V. Rigalleau, and M. Aparicio. 2000. Lipids, protein intake, and diabetic nephropathy. Diabetes Metab. 26 (supp. 4): 45-53.

7. Pedrini, M.T., A.S. Levey, J. Lau, T.C. Chalmers, and P.H. Wang. 1996. The effect of dietary protein on the progression of diabetic and nondiabetic renal disease: a meta-analysis. Ann. Intern. Med. 124 (7): 627-32.

8. Bankhead, C. 1998. Ketogenic diet can cause serious adverse effects, data suggests. Medical Tribune 39 (17): 23.

9. Licata, A.A., E. Bow, F.C. Bartler, et al. 1979. Effect of dietary protein on urinary calcium in normal subjects and in patients with nephrolithiasis. Metabolism 28: 895; Robertson, W.G., P.J. Heyburn, M. Peacock, et al. 1979. The effect of high animal protein intake on the risk of calcium stone formation in the urinary tract. Clin. Sci. 57: 285; Brokis, J.G., A.S. Levitt, and S.M. Cruthers. 1982, The effect of vegetable and animal protein diet on calcium, urate and oxalate excretion. Br. J. Urol. 54: 590; Robertson, W.G., M. Peacock, P.J. Heyburn, et al. 1981. The risk of calcium stone formation in relation to affluence and dietary animal protein, in Brokis, J.G., and B. Finlayson, eds. Urinary calculus, International Urinary Stone Conference. Littleton, Colo.: PSG Publishing, p. 3.

[brazil]

I cant say anthing as with personal experience to this and obviously it works to lose fat as people that use these diets including some of you have six packs and that i do not. I could never eat so low carbs as I feel like a slug and dont have energy to do anything. I think I ate low carbs for a week when i was a fat ass but i couldnt take it.

[jjgonz]

I cant say anthing as with personal experience to this and obviously it works to lose fat as people that use these diets including some of you have six packs and that i do not. I could never eat so low carbs as I feel like a slug and dont have energy to do anything. I think I ate low carbs for a week when i was a fat ass but i couldnt take it.

yeah it takes a hard week or so to get used to it but after two weeks if your not functioning well then your eating too many carbs like krom said before...you either go really low or it doesnt work

[ojs]

Well i guess for you it works, but according to health and fitness magazine I had read this is what I understood. How do you manage to have less than 40 carbs per day and stay fit? You never eat more or you mean you have low carb days constantly? Im no doctor just stating what I understood to be correct. How do you eat so low of carbs anyway? 40gs is like two slices of bread!
According to Health and Fitness magazine steroids cause roid rage, will destroy your kidneys, will cause a heart attack and will cause permanent erectile dysfunction. I'm sure I missed a few. I don't read every issue. Oh, ...and I'm sure you've seen all the great supplement reviews that really make you lean and mean!! Oh, and, I forgot about all the great 6 week blast 'em workouts that will make you grow like a weed. .....go get um baby!!

[ojs]

Some people do very well on very low carbs and some people just don't. If you want anecdotal info, I can tell you from the dozens of people I've put on diets how it looks to me. About 50% of the people I've worked with do extremely well on low carb. About 20% just can't make it work for nothing. ....the rest can go either way.

The easiest way to tell where you are is to do the Atkins' 10 day induction to see. If you shift metabolically in 3-5 days (energy levels go up), you're in. If after 7 days you're still lethargic, you can be pretty sure it ain't gonna work for you.

I don't see any reason to try and make blanket generalizations about it. You've got to be willing to experiment. Sometimes you are pleasantly surprised. And good results just come like magic. It really cuts down on the cardio requirements considerably if you match your diet to your body instead of your head.

[brazil]

Some people do very well on very low carbs and some people just don't. If you want anecdotal info, I can tell you from the dozens of people I've put on diets how it looks to me. About 50% of the people I've worked with do extremely well on low carb. About 20% just can't make it work for nothing. ....the rest can go either way.

The easiest way to tell where you are is to do the Atkins' 10 day induction to see. If you shift metabolically in 3-5 days (energy levels go up), you're in. If after 7 days you're still lethargic, you can be pretty sure it ain't gonna work for you.

I don't see any reason to try and make blanket generalizations about it. You've got to be willing to experiment. Sometimes you are pleasantly surprised. And good results just come like magic. It really cuts down on the cardio requirements considerably if you match your diet to your body instead of your head.


Im not going to argue as your body is a testament that it works for some. Ill give a a longer go when i get back to the states as I tried this method when i first started lifting three years ago and had no muscle/shape what so ever.

[ironraider52]

the way i was taught, was that when on juice, a very low cut diet wouldn't have you losing muscle, thats what its role in a cut is. the same way that putting on muscle very fast is the role roids play in bulking.

i guess i could be wrong, but im guessing that with tren being such a strength builder and test being such a mass builder that a restricted low carb diet will keep alotta muscle if not put on sum lean mass.