T.R.T and lab results

[JustBecause]

My husband has been on testosterone replacement therapy for four months now. He has not done a cycle yet so there are no alternating factors.

They started out at 200 mg/ml every two weeks. The first labs came back that his levels were lower...@ the end of the two weeks. So they increased his injection to 300 mg/ml every two weeks. They prescribed enanthate.

So now the doc wants to sit down and discuss this with him.

Has anyone been through this? Does anyone have any suggestions? We went to the doctor with our intentions back when they symptoms came about.

Should an endocrinologist be seen instead?

I just ordered him a bulking cycle...but need to regulate the t.r.t first.

I would sincerely appreciate any info you might have. And let me know if you need more details.

Thanks a bunch guys :cool:

[denman69]

sorry but i would have no clue how to answer that.

[p2o4wer]

I wish my girl would buy me something from a...s company instead of screamin LAY OFF THE SHIT... sorry I dont know.

[Alin]

My husband has been on testosterone replacement therapy for four months now. He has not done a cycle yet so there are no alternating factors.

They started out at 200 mg/ml every two weeks. The first labs came back that his levels were lower...@ the end of the two weeks. So they increased his injection to 300 mg/ml every two weeks. They prescribed enanthate.

So now the doc wants to sit down and discuss this with him.

Has anyone been through this? Does anyone have any suggestions? We went to the doctor with our intentions back when they symptoms came about.

Should an endocrinologist be seen instead?

I just ordered him a bulking cycle...but need to regulate the t.r.t first.

I would sincerely appreciate any info you might have. And let me know if you need more details.

Thanks a bunch guys :cool:



Has his levels been checked again after his dose was raised to 300mg/wk?

[JustBecause]

Has his levels been checked again after his dose was raised to 300mg/wk?

The levels have been checked twice...the first lab showed lower levels, thus the increase in mg's...the second lab results were lower than the first labs, and the doc is not really sure what to think

doc has been asking tons of questions regarding childhood fevers and injuries and such...just found out this weekend from his parents that he did have a couple instances at a very young age...

[anaholic]

Iam curios as to what country you live, how old your husband is, was his testosterone score lower than 300 nanograms per decalitre? The reason his test scores were lower the second time is because by giving him synthetic test it caused his body to shut down nateral production, the low test levels he has is because thats what his body thinks is the right level, I would not give him anything that will shut down his own nateral production, I would give him anavar, primobalin, or any other true anabolic, stay away from androgens all together, testosterone is the worst thing you could possibly give him it is going to make the condition worse, the condition is called andropause, thats if he hasnt caused the testicle atrophy himslf, from prior steroid usage, also order some clomid, and hcg, what I would really put an effort into getting is some fertador/cyclophenil from mexico, I have great confidence in this stuff and it should increase his nateral production, also if you manage to find a source for fertador please let me know I havnt been able to find any latley, its just a matter of spending the time on the PC to find it

[JustBecause]

Iam curios as to what country you live, how old your husband is, was his testosterone score lower than 300 nanograms per decalitre? The reason his test scores were lower the second time is because by giving him synthetic test it caused his body to shut down nateral production, the low test levels he has is because thats what his body thinks is the right level, I would not give him anything that will shut down his own nateral production, I would give him anavar, primobalin, or any other true anabolic, stay away from androgens all together, testosterone is the worst thing you could possibly give him it is going to make the condition worse, the condition is called andropause, thats if he hasnt caused the testicle atrophy himslf, from prior steroid usage, also order some clomid, and hcg, what I would really put an effort into getting is some fertador/cyclophenil from mexico, I have great confidence in this stuff and it should increase his nateral production, also if you manage to find a source for fertador please let me know I havnt been able to find any latley, its just a matter of spending the time on the PC to find it

We are in the US...yes the score was lower than 300...have not checked free test levels yet...he did have two instances as a child that may have contributed to the problems he is having now...he is in the middle of his first ever cycle now...it is alin's eq cycle for newbies...his next cycle is a bulking cycle, from alin of course, with a lot more "stuff" to take... :D

[Bucket]

Andropause is a real condition that at least SOME doctors are taking seriously in the last few years, and the rest are to scared to even talk about it with the recent steroid scare. It is the male version of Menopause. The older men get the lower the test levels become starting generally after the age of 20. By the mid thirties the level becomes so low that there is a lack of sexual drive.

From what I have read on other steroid sites and medical journals is that the average HRT treatment is between 150 to 250 PER WEEK. If your husband has low test levels and is prescribed test to bring him back up to what he needs there is NO way of him continuing to make natural test. Over a prolonged use of HRT even 50mg a week will shut him down over time. What this means is that there is no real way to substitute the natural test he lacks with synthetic test while continuing to produce test on his own. He will either need to produce it naturally or get it through the synthetic version. It's just how the male human body responds.

There is nothing wrong with using synthetic test to bring his levels back up. But once you are on it then you will need to be on it for life. My advise would be to consider finastride or liquidstride as a DHT blocker the help the inflammation of his prostate over time. But remember that if his dosage is off on the DHT blocker it could negatively effect his sex drive.

[anaholic]

I think that an androgen would be the worst thing to give him, it would shut down his nateral production, possibly for good, men with andropause are very sensitive to any androgens at all, i would really reconsider what your doing.
the most logical aproach would be to increase nateral production, and only take steroids that do not shut down nateral production

[anaholic]

living in the usa is not a good place to recieve male hormone replacement theropy,first of all MDs in this country learn little to nothing of anabolic steroids, and the FDA really frowns apoun dispensing them for any reason, they can however dispense testosterone to a male that scores less than 300 nanograms per decolitre on a blood test, but the only thing that is FDA approved for this is testosterone, most doctors no nothing of the test feed back loop, or how to increase nateral production, once they inject him with test they have no way to tell by blood work which test is nateral and which is synthetic, just about every bodybuilder would know more about increasing nateral production than a doctor, if you start doing testosterone replacement theropy here in the us you will eventually regret it,there may very well come a point in time that you wont get a test shot from your family MD, or the mail order dealers are a thing of the past, when that time comes your man will really be hurting, and basically would have the same test levels of one who is casterated,

[JustBecause]

living in the usa is not a good place to recieve male hormone replacement theropy,first of all MDs in this country learn little to nothing of anabolic steroids, and the FDA really frowns apoun dispensing them for any reason, they can however dispense testosterone to a male that scores less than 300 nanograms per decolitre on a blood test, but the only thing that is FDA approved for this is testosterone, most doctors no nothing of the test feed back loop, or how to increase nateral production, once they inject him with test they have no way to tell by blood work which test is nateral and which is synthetic, just about every bodybuilder would know more about increasing nateral production than a doctor, if you start doing testosterone replacement theropy here in the us you will eventually regret it,there may very well come a point in time that you wont get a test shot from your family MD, or the mail order dealers are a thing of the past, when that time comes your man will really be hurting, and basically would have the same test levels of one who is casterated,

Thanks for your time and input. I have been reading up on the things you say. We are wrapping up the first cycle...one more injection and then pct. When that is over, we have to get the next labs done. The thing about the test injections is that he felt really damn good. If we get primo to use in place of test, are the results going to be as favorable?

Hubbie is going to be 36 years old. Hopefully there is a long life ahead of him and we want to do what is best.

Should we be asking the doctor to order specific labs...since they have never checked free test?

Thanks again to you all who look out for each other and care enough to share your thoughts and knowledge :D

[anaholic]

ill take primobolan over test anyday, nobody talks about it on this board, but i really like it
theres only one way for you to find out

[sikdogg]

I'm amazed that there are still doctors that use the 2-week injection protocol. The AACE guideline recommends 7-10 injection intervals and so does any doctor that knows anything about TRT protocols. The problem with 2-week intervals is that during the first few days post injection, your test levels are supraphysiological and by the end of the second week your levels are rock bottom. This causes emotional and other side effects. The latest accepted protocol is to inject 100mg weekly as a starting point and adjust up or down based on test results. Print out these protocols and give them to your doctor to read... if they still insist on doing their own thing then you need to find a new doctor.

Check out Dr. Crisler's website (http://allthingsmale.com) and download his paper "TRT: A Recipe for Success" and don't forget to also download is "HCG Update" paper.

You can download the AACE guideline here (http://www.aace.com/newsroom/disorders/)...

[anaholic]

thats why they made sustunon,

[sikdogg]

Sustanon is crap for TRT... Go to any board that dicusses hypogonadism and ask about sust... my experience has been that test cyp every 7 days with HCG has been the best thing i've ever done.

[anaholic]

ya but thats why they made it
whay about restandol have you tried that?

[sikdogg]

No i haven't... what is it??

I've been reading about folks in Europe using test undec. (Nebido) with good success. According to the patient information leaflet, injections are done every 10-14 weeks. I think that's a stretch but if one could get stable blood levels when injected every 4-6 weeks then it's worth it in my book.

[sikdogg]

I did a quick search on restandol and it's commonly known as Andriol. Andriol (also test undec) has been unsuccessfully used for TRT. It is just not very oral bioavailable...No un-methylated steroid is going to be very orally bioavailable... The theory of using a very long ester is sound though, which is why Nebido was developed.

[anaholic]

testosterone undecanoate is an oral that is not FDA approved, it is available in europe under the names restandol, undestor and andriol, it reaches its first peak in the blood stream 2.5 hours after ingestion then reaches a second peak 5 hours after ingestion, when taken in doses of 240mg or less per day it does not suppress gonadotrophins. only about 1-2% aromatizes to estrogen and in 100 clinical studies no cases of gyno were reported also there were no casaes of enlargement of the prostate gland. TU is not a 17 alpha alkalated compound, and does not elevate liver enzymes, but it does generate the usual side effects of sodium retention, but at 240mg daily divided doses, blood pressure is unchanged, there is no testicular shrinkage, and libido is increased,
also cholesteral and triglycerides tend to be reduced with long term usage.
so all in all its a very safe steroid any more i take only safe steroids, and see no point in taking things like testC or testE or anadrol or dbol in the long run the side effects just arent worth it

[sikdogg]

testosterone undecanoate is an oral that is not FDA approved, it is available in europe under the names restandol, undestor and andriol, it reaches its first peak in the blood stream 2.5 hours after ingestion then reaches a second peak 5 hours after ingestion, when taken in doses of 240mg or less per day it does not suppress gonadotrophins. only about 1-2% aromatizes to estrogen and in 100 clinical studies no cases of gyno were reported also there were no casaes of enlargement of the prostate gland. TU is not a 17 alpha alkalated compound, and does not elevate liver enzymes, but it does generate the usual side effects of sodium retention, but at 240mg daily divided doses, blood pressure is unchanged, there is no testicular shrinkage, and libido is increased,
also cholesteral and triglycerides tend to be reduced with long term usage.
so all in all its a very safe steroid any more i take only safe steroids, and see no point in taking things like testC or testE or anadrol or dbol in the long run the side effects just arent worth it
At 240mg daily, how much does it affect your testosterone levels?? It's hard to believe that if it is truely effective at increasing test levels that it does not cause supression... do you have any studies to support this, i'd love to read it. I believe that it has such a low aromatization rate because oral bioavailability it very low... at 240mg daily, i'd be surprised if you actually get 10% of the hormone past the digestive process...

[sikdogg]

Here are Swale's (Dr. Crisler) comments regarding the two studies below (reposted from Meso)...

====================
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Nov;89(11):5429-34. Related Articles, Links

Intramuscular testosterone undecanoate: pharmacokinetic aspects of a novel testosterone formulation during long-term treatment of men with hypogonadism.

Schubert M, Minnemann T, Hubler D, Rouskova D, Christoph A, Oettel M, Ernst M, Mellinger U, Krone W, Jockenhovel F.

Klinik II und Poliklinik fur Innere Medizin der Universitat zu Koln, Germany.

====================
Age Ageing. 2005 Mar;34(2):125-30. Epub 2004 Dec 13. Related Articles, Links

Effect of 12 month oral testosterone on testosterone deficiency symptoms in symptomatic elderly males with low-normal gonadal status.

Haren M, Chapman I, Coates P, Morley J, Wittert G.

University of Adelaide, Department of Medicine, Adelaide, South Australia, Australia.

The points made in the first provided study have nothing to do with a comparison to the innappropriately administered TC TRT (q 3 week injections).

The TU listed in the second study is the oral prep known as Andriol. It is not currently FDA-approved in the US, to my knowledge, but I hear another oral TU product is on the way.

I met with Mr Gord Tonnelly in Canada in 2003. He is considered the world's foremost authority on the oral TU preparation. At that time, even he had largely abandoned its use, but told me he sometimes had to due to reimbursement issues with the Canadian socialized medicine system.

Issues with Andriol include inconsistency in serum levels, not just patient-to-patient, but literally dose-to-dose. Pharmacies do not like refrigerating it, too. I believe it must be dosed several times per day, so patient complience is an issue as well.

He has told me that if you take Andriol with a 20 gram fat load (!) you can dramatically improve its performance. That is no doubt due to its lymphatic absorption process.

Injectable TU would require a HUGE injection, volume wise, each time, as TRT patients need roughly 55mg of T actually into their systems (once the ester is separated from the T molecule, and half-life is considered) per week if giving injections at such long intervals. What IS the volume of a 1000mg TU dose?

But the real problem with IM TU is one of logistics. I can tell you that my new patients are chomping at the bit to get their T levels tuned up. If one is dead-set on administering appropriate TRT, you must wait several half-lives of the medication for serum hormone levels to stabilize. I do not think they want to wait that long. One must also then wait a similar amount of time to re-stabilize following dosing changes.

Testicular atrophy would be much worse then, as I do not add my HCG Protocol in until T is properly tuned up first.

Current thinking is that we do not provide TRT to gentlemen who are newly discovered to have prostate cancer. Therefore the existence of a testosterone preparation with such a long half-life in my patient's body, should that occur, is not a pleasant thought.

Filling in for the lower serum T levels at the end of the "cycle" with HCG seems counterproductive if one is using this prep to avoid more regular injections. You then are required to every day, or at least every other day, SC injections of HCG, for weeks.

The protocols I have developed allow me to tightly control serum androgen levels, while stabilizing same, maintain testicular size, and also to support the other hormonal pathways which begin with CHOL. For me, TC is unparalleled for IM TRT.

[anaholic]

give it a try, thats the only way to tell for sure
the information i wrote came from steve halverson an OEM freelance researcher